Using buckshot loads in .44 revolvers

[41 mag]

If you don't mind, would you, please, give me your thoughts on different manufacturer's cases and the specifications differences among them, as they relate to seating depth of the capsules and case lengths (for crimping purposes)?

On the round balls, I had the capsules on hand, and one day measured them, and  just for kicks picked up a box of the .350's. Figured I was just messing around anyway so it would be an easy test. They worked out very well and after a couple or three boxes I sort of set them aside.

The cases I used for the most part were all Speer Lawman once fired. I got several hundred from a friend who did not load. I generally at the time used Winchester for most of my handguns, and they were trimmed to the shortest case when purchased. Then about every third or so loading I would run them through again to simply keep the mouth square.

I have really never kept them to any set standard on length as most never reach the max trim length. I simply shoot until I need more ammo, then check the AOL  on a couple dozen, set the trimmer to the minimum case length and run upwards of 1K or so through. It is easier to do them all at once than to do them 50 here or there. Then there all ready to load.

Nowday's I am using Starline, which is great brass, but I still have many of the Speer, as well as Win and Rem cases on hand. In the end of the test I did with the round balls, I used them all simply due to not wanting to screw with setting up everything to do just a few cases. I did not notice much if any differences in impacts or groups out to 25yds. 

[coyotejoe]

I seem to recall there being something like that produced in commercial pistol caliber ammo. They used a stack of short hollow based bullets sort of like semi-wadcutter minie balls but formed so that the nose of one would exactly fit into the hollow base of the next one. I wish I could remember what they were called or who made them. I'm sure they got beyond the experimental stage and into production. I think they were called "tetra-" something or other.

[blhof]

Those speer, primer powered bullets in 38 are pretty effective against collared doves and tree rats out to 30'.  When I lived in urban Fl. I used them in my garage for target practice and noticed the collared doves collecting around my bird feeder.  Within a year I had 10 or so in my freezer at any time, they eat quite well and are much larger than the native dove.  Used it on a squirrel that was destroying my feeder and he dropped on the spot with a head shot.

[LoudBoomBoom]

To 41mag -  I was asking because I don't use a separate crimping die but, rather, the built-in crimp function in my seater die and it is very dependent on case length uniformity.  The differences in case lengths among Winchester, and S&B, and Hornady brass is huge, so the crimp settings are not compatible.  I must sort the brass also by case length for seating AND crimping purposes.  Thanks

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To coyotejoe - See?... I didn't know any of this.  If you can remember, or help trigger someone else's memory, more info, please, let me know.  'Nested' projectiles...  'matrioshka' style. That also is worth my looking into.  Thanks

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To blhof - Was that standard primers or magnum primers? What size and style 'bullets' were these? The .350 balls?  Thanks

[41 mag]

To 41mag -  I was asking because I don't use a separate crimping die but, rather, the built-in crimp function in my seater die and it is very dependent on case length uniformity.  The differences in case lengths among Winchester, and S&B, and Hornady brass is huge, so the crimp settings are not compatible.  I must sort the brass also by case length for seating AND crimping purposes.  Thanks

I also, do not use a separate crimp when I load for handguns. For the round ball loads I believe I did use a single stage press for the seat/crimp. I found that I could feel the action better and not crack the capsules as they went into the case.

That said, your right on with the differences in length of cases messing with the crimp. I have found that while not totally necessary to trim most handgun cases, I get much better accuracy from the same length case than from a random length case. Most times when I start to load a batch of rounds, I will run one case through the seat/crimp station and set the die for that particular length. Sometime I have to change it sometimes not. As previously mentioned though, I will generally wait until I have quite a few to load up before setting up to run a batch.

I prefer to not over crimp any case, as it will work against you just like not enough crimp will. While not applying to the shot capsules, I prefer my crimps on just about all loads for revolvers to simply roll into the bottom edge of the cannalure, with just enough roll to catch and hold the lip in place during recoil. I have seen many handloads where it appeared that the mouth of the case was swedged into the side of the bullet, which resulted in more crimp than was necessary. Even with top end magnum rounds, using heavy bullets, I have found that with the same amount of crimp I normally use on most other loads, I do not experience any slippage or bullet jump under recoil. This has been my main reason for trimming cases through the years, over anything else. 

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi 41mag

"Ditto"... all that sounds about right for me too... with one difference - I load in small batches (no more than 50 or so at a time)

I don't have a progressive press; I use a single stage press, and manually weigh and dispense all powder charges. 

By the way, I was hoping to load some this morning and go to the range to continue testing but the forecast last night said it was going to rain all day so I guess I am going to go to work instead.  You know the old saying, "Work before pleasure" really refers to what to do if the weather is not good for much else.  You DID know that, Didn't you?

Thanks

[Gun Runner]

Somewhere in the back of my mind (there's plenty of room). I remember something in V/N about using a short piece of copper wire hooked to the buck shot.  Coundent the same thing be done using a few .433 round balls wit an inch or so of wire between them. They come out wipping around, and I remember seeing some of the damage they could do. Just a thought. 

Gun Runner

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi GunRunner,

Yes, the back of your mind seems to agree with mine.  This is an interesting concept and, if I fail to produce satisfactory loads using the Speer shot capsules, this is one of the options in standby (subject to statutory legalities).

In a parallel thread running in the reloading forum right here in GBO another poster brought that up as well, below are excerpts of his post and my response.

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From JedMan - When I was much younger and first started reloading, I toyed with many ideas of multi-shot loads in rifles , shotguns and muzzleloaders, never with handguns.
One such experiment that I remember as being DEVASTATING was I used to take a piece of 7 strand  stainless steel fishing leader materiial about 12 " long and crimp on as many 1/4" dia. split shot sinkers as I could pack into a 12 ga. shell with just a card wad over the powder charge.
Lets just say I used them for close range varmits and for that they are DEVASTATING !!


My response - I have heard that some similar was used in Vietnam on the VC.  I don't know the details but I had also heard that these, and flechettes both, were 'banned' in the US (maybe elsewhere too, I don't know).

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Do you remember anything else about how the ones in V/N were constructed? Caliber or gauge? Number of balls? etc.  Whatever you give me may prove to be very useful in not having to "re-invent the wheel".

Thanks

[Savage]

I'd imagine jedMan is referring to the flechettes in the RVN. I don't think there's anything more lethal in undergrowth! Other than buckshot, that's about all that was available. Unless of course some of the "Remington Raiders" idled away their days stuffing coins and tacks in shotgun shells. There are currently shot shells available loaded with lead balls on a wire. They are called "Macho Bolo" or something like that. Saw some today at the gun show, right alongside the "Flame Thrower", and "Rhodesian" something or other. I'll try to find a link and attach it.
Found it!
http://chareestreasureschest.com/html/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html
Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi again Savage,

I checked out the link and it is as you said; in fact, they also list some sabots I am interested in, so I'll give them a call.

Now, as interesting as some of these other things are, CAVEAT EMPTOR, many of them are VERY restricted in Florida (see below), posession and/or use being a third degree felony... That takes them, for me, out of the list of things I will play with.  Don't know the laws in other states so I can't comment on that.

Below is a copy, in toto, of Florida Statutes, Title XLVI, Chapter 790, Section 31

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790.31  Armor-piercing or exploding ammunition or dragon's breath shotgun shells, bolo shells, or flechette shells prohibited.--

(1)  As used in this section, the term:

(a)  "Armor-piercing bullet" means any bullet which has a steel inner core or core of equivalent hardness and a truncated cone and which is designed for use in a handgun as an armor-piercing or metal-piercing bullet.

(b)  "Exploding bullet" means any bullet that can be fired from any firearm, if such bullet is designed or altered so as to detonate or forcibly break up through the use of an explosive or deflagrant contained wholly or partially within or attached to such bullet. The term does not include any bullet designed to expand or break up through the mechanical forces of impact alone or any signaling device or pest control device not designed to impact on any target.

(c)  "Handgun" means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver.

(d)  "dragon's breath shotgun shell" means any shotgun shell that contains exothermic pyrophoric misch metal as the projectile and that is designed for the sole purpose of throwing or spewing a flame or fireball to simulate a flamethrower.

(e)  "Bolo shell" means any shell that can be fired in a firearm and that expels as projectiles two or more metal balls connected by solid metal wire.

(f)  "Flechette shell" means any shell that can be fired in a firearm and that expels two or more pieces of fin-stabilized solid metal wire or two or more solid dart-type projectiles.

(2)(a)  Any person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or delivers any armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet, or dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(b)  Any person who possesses an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet with knowledge of its armor-piercing or exploding capabilities loaded in a handgun, or who possesses a dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell with knowledge of its capabilities loaded in a firearm, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(c)  Any person who possesses with intent to use an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet or dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell to assist in the commission of a criminal act is guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3)  This section does not apply to:

(a)  The possession of any item described in subsection (1) by any law enforcement officer, when possessed in connection with the performance of his or her duty as a law enforcement officer, or law enforcement agency.

(b)  The manufacture of items described in subsection (1) exclusively for sale or delivery to law enforcement agencies.

(c)  The sale or delivery of items described in subsection (1) to law enforcement agencies.

History.--s. 1, ch. 83-253; s. 1, ch. 92-141; s. 1221, ch. 97-102.
 
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bUT THE LINK DID SHOW OTHER INTERESTING STUFF i'D LIKE TO TRY.

tHANKS

[Savage]

LBB,
Just an FYI post. I would strongly suggest anyone interested in such items as shown in that link, check all applicable statutes before ordering/manufacturing/possessing like items.
Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi everybody,

Follow-up - The testing of the latest buckshot loads which I had scheduled for yesterday had to be postponed.  Due to a most embarrasing stupidity on my part (the details of which I am keeping to myself) the Ruger revolver I use for the tests has been demoted to the rank of "Paperweight".  It will be out of commission for, I hope, only a couple of days. No need for concern though, safety was not a factor, and is not an issue; no ammo was involved.  I will be going this morning to Graingers and pick up some tools that 'should' allow me to restore its function.  Failing that, I will have to bring it to my 'smith' and, since I WILL have to explain to him what happened - I can just see it now - that man will be laughing so hard he might injure himself, and then I will never hear the end of it.  So, let's file this one right next to the case of the new father who got up early to go to work and, still half-asleep, went to the bathroom to brush his teeth and grabbed the tube of Desitin, instead of the toothpaste...

bye

[Savage]

Ahhhhhhhh, ok! I think I can visualize the problem. Trust your Ruger will be restored to full operation soon.
Savage

[LoudBoomBoom]

Ok...

The Ruger is now out of 'surgery', looks good, no scars, as if nothing had happened... thank you...

I didn't have to go all the way to Graingers - found the tool I needed at a local hardware store and, with the logical application of an overwhelming force of reason, appropriate irresistible persuasive techniques, and a little elbow grease, it made the wise decision to cooperate and has now been restored to full duty and rank.

"Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?" - Colonel John “Hannibal” Smith, The A Team

Now I have to schedule another trip to the range.

Stay tuned!

[45-70.gov]

come  on  we  need  details
you  can't leave  us  hanging
WHAT HAPPENED?

if  it  makes you feel better
i laid  my ruger  on the roof  and  drove  off
luckily  i saw  to cars run over  it in the rear view mirror
the shot capsules broke it  hit so  hard
bent  it was straitened in a vice
i  wanted  pachmyer grigs any way
ruger sent  my check back   within one week.....along with  new  sights
and a letter  stating  the gun had a life time warrenty...i got it  used

the  gun was a tack driver  even  after  its accedent

can  you  top  this  for  DUMB

[LoudBoomBoom]

hi 45-70.gov

What?... No comparison... What you did was just an ordinary oversight; the mind gets temporarily distracted by some little nothing, and it glosses over the task at hand.  ANYBODY could have done THAT.  That's just being human... doesn't even qualify for 'dumb'.  Actually, you called it right the first time - an accident!... Is that ALL you got?

Tell me you put in a whole bunch of primers backwards... and then it got interesting when you tried to remove them.

Tell me how you just HAD to scratch your back and the only thing handy was your long-barrelled revolver... and then had to explain to your wife the new hole in the ceiling.

Tell me how you loaned one of your neighbors your favorite revolver because he was going duck hunting and wanted a side-arm for snakes... and then had to explain to the police how YOUR gun ended up as evidence in a licquor store hold up.

Yeah... you tell me you did ALL those things (or reasonably similar things) and then, maybe, you'll get my sympathy; one case of having a brain flatus hardly qualifies (flatus - look it up - I didn't know if the other more common word is allowed in this forum). Not to belittle your experience and the psychological trauma it must have caused but, seriously... you gotta do better.

On the other hand, the last thing I'd want is for some anti-gun lobbyist to relate to Congress your gun-related mistakes, and mine (mostly mine because we already know yours are not that bad), and, next thing you know, we'd all have to also pass an IQ test to buy a gun. So, then, the people that couldn't pass the test would have to buy them off the streets, which would mean more guns in the hands of idiots, and you and me (mostly me) would become infamous as one of the the reasons behind the upcoming Gun Control Act of 2010.

Wow!... See what you started?  My imagination got away from me again... It's all those brain flatus (or is it flatii).

Let me get back on subject (I don't want to be banned from the forum):

 .44 buckshot load testing... results... here...soon

bye

[45-70.gov]

brain flatulence  is the correct  term

the pot bellied stove forum
 would  be the place  to discuss...''dumbest  things  i did with a gun''

this thread has  got me ready  to do some  more  buck shot pistol loads tinkering

i  have  some remington   38  and 357 mag   double   triple ought buckshot loads
these  are factory loads

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hey everybody,

After just spending another couple of hours at the range, making a lot of noise, and ruining a bunch of perfectly good sheets of paper...

The latest test showed that I have exceeded the limit on how much powder will give the best pattern.  The patterns that looked so good before are now all over the place.  I wanted to find the optimum compromise between the fastest velocity and the most consistent, usable, pattern.  The theoretical maximum of 1200 FPS is no longer theoretical but is now proven for the specific recipe I use.

This is the basic recipe:

Case:         Once fired Winchester brass (also tried Federal, Hornady, Remington, and S & B)   

Primer:       Winchester WLP

Capsule:     Speer

Buckshot:   Winchester '00' (also tried '0')

Case Prep:  Primer pockets cleaned, flash hole deburred, sized (0.449, +/- .0005"), trimmed (1.280", +/- .001"), neck OD deburred, neck ID VLD deburred, sorted for loaded OAL at or under 1.60"

Loads:        Manually assembled and weight-uniformed (+/- 1 grain) 

Powder:      Individually measured (+/- .15 grain)


Although quite arbitrary, I admit, these were my goals:

Spread - 12 inches maximum at 50 feet (attained)

Muzzle Velocity - 1000 FPS minimum, maximum as high as possible, subject to spread limits (now known to be about 1150 maximum; attained)

Energy - Equal to, or greater, PER PELLET, than a nominal .32 ACP at up to 50 feet (tests pending)

If/when, ALL these goals are attained, I will consider this project concluded satisfactorily.  Whether this succeeds or fails, the next project should be multiple (3 segments) full-caliber non-encapsulated copper projectiles per loaded round.

The expected goals for these are:

Spread: 12 inches maximum at 75 feet

Muzzle Velocity - 1500 FPS minimum, 2500 FPS maximum, subject to spread limits

Energy - Equal to, or greater, PER SEGMENT, than a nominal .38 Special (158 gr. LRN) at up to 75 feet

So, there you have it...

BTW, thanks 45-70.gov for the clarification on correct terminology - I must have been playing hooky from class that day... Also, please tell me more about those .38/.357 '00' and '000' factory loads you got.

Thanks

[45-70.gov]

38  and 357  loads are factory remington      000 buck

2 to 3 inch group at  approx 50 ft

my  44mag  load  with  .433  balls  and 9 gr unigue  do the same

000 = 70 grains X 2 = 140 grains total load

.433 balls = 125gr   X 2  = 250 grain total
your 6 shot 44 is now  a 12 shot 357.......with  built in double tap
this is the load  your looking for i bet.....
you will  have to order  the .433  balls probly
they  are real  soft so you can't push them hard
it will be worth it i think


i wonder if you can cut up a bullet
useing the greece grooves as a guide
and stack it back in the case


this  is fustrateing
work  needs  to slack  up  so i can play in the man cave

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi 45-70.gov

--> 38  and 357  loads are factory remington      000 buck

Is that currently available and, if so, from whom?
Do you have any ballistic data (MV, trajectory, etc.)?

--> my  44mag  load  with  .433  balls 
Do you have any ballistic data (MV, trajectory, etc.)?

--> i wonder if you can cut up a bullet useing the greece grooves as a guide and stack it back in the case

Yes, but why?... Unless you use a lathe with either a bullet collet or lined jaws with a live center it will be hard to get true cuts. From my perspective, since I don't much care for lead touching the rifling anyway, I bought copper stock and machine each round to be whatever I want.  I do that now for a particular custom caliber and it is nice (MV=2000 FPS, Weight=625 gr., ME=5553 Ft/Lbs., Recoil=about 65 Ft/Lbs.) 

Let me know your thoughts on this.

Thanks

[LoudBoomBoom]

Hi y'all...

I should be heading to the range shortly - it's now 5:30 AM - and should have some more numbers for you when I get back.

In the meantime I wanted to relay some findings that may be using to others also wishing to 'roll their own' (are you paying attention, 45-70.gov?... There'll be a pop quiz later )

Please note that these comments are MY findings as they pertain to MY case and may not apply to you and your case. 

BRASS - .44 Mag
- CBC - Too short for my RCBS trimmer = crimping will be a pain
        - ID too narrow = shotshells won't go in far enough to clear the end of the cylinder (COL too long)
S &B - ID too narrow also
Federal - ID too narrow also
Remington - ID borderline but will work
Winchester - EEASY!

BRASS - .44 Special
Hornady - ID too narrow
Federal - ID too narrow
Remington - ID too narrow
Winchester - OK

Brass - .44 Russian
Starline - OK (but looks weird)

Ok, later...