Author Topic: Barrel liners and caliber conversions (Read 4450 times)

chilipepper917 · « **on:** April 27, 2011, 05:03:05 AM »

I am new on here and have gone back and read many of the interesting things that some have you have done to your Handi's. One thing I havent seen discussed is useing a barrel liner to change the caliber. My thought was to take a donor barrel and install a 32-20 barrel liner, re cut the chamber and re work the extractor/ ejector as required. Has anyone done this, and is it as simple as it sounds or like most things, is it harder then it looks?

Thanks in advance,

Chili

spooked · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2011, 05:07:25 AM »

"is it as simple as it sounds or like most things, is it harder then it looks? "

The relining and rechambering aren't bad

, the reworking the ejector-extractor might be a little more tedious $:-\$ .

chilipepper917 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2011, 05:29:26 AM »

I kinda thought that might be the case. Would it be helpful to get a donor barrel with a case rim dia. close to the new rim diam or smaller? I have not done anything like this and thought it might be a good first attempt porject. It sounds like there are some folks on here that are incredably helpful and can do anything they can think of with these rifles.

Thank you for your reply

bikerbeans · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2011, 06:45:25 AM »

Hi & Welcome,

I have a 45 ACP liner project being put together by a good friend. I bought a 45 ACP barrel blank and he then turned it down to fit inside a 20 ga barrel. The blank inserts through the chamber end of the 20 ga and the blank has a rim on it that matches the 20 ga rim cut. The barrel is turned down so there are is contact at the chamber end and the muzzle end of the host barrel. The barrel liner will then be expoxed into the 20 ga. host barrel. A cut is then machined to allow for the ejector, a new ejector as the 20 gage one isn't tall enough. I believe there is a lot of time involved in this work as the barrel blank had to be turned down quite a bit to fit inside the 20 ga barrel. You will need metal working equipment, lathe, etc. as I don't think this is a hand tool type of project unless you have a lot of patience and free time.

BTW, there is a least one company out there that sell finished barrel liners that will go inside of 410, 20, 16 & 12 gage shotguns. I have read their information and it appears that the liners are removeable. It was not clear to me if they have ejectors or not. I looked at pricing this morning and they wanted $155 for an 18" liner plus shipping with a 2 or 3 month lead time. I forget the web address but just search of "rifle liners for shotguns" and you find them.

Good Luck

BB

chilipepper917 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:08:10 AM »

My thought proccess was something like this. I found a site where you can buy liners by the inch. The 32-20 liner has an OD of .50". I was thinking about getting a donor 45-70 barrel and bore it out to .52ish. I was thinking I could do this with hand tools as I dont have a lathe. Good or bad Idea? Assuming I could get that part right I could loctite the new liner into place. Rent or buy a reamer and a Go/ No Go gage and then rework a new ejector-extractor. It seems like a small and inexpensive part so if it took a couple tries to get it right it wouldn't cost all that much. As mentioned I'm not sure I could do all this without metal working tools but I thought it might be a cool little project and give me a very cool little rifle if it all worked out.

Thanks again for the advice and ideas, please keep them coming.

Best regards,

Chili

Jason F · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:10:56 AM »

I tried contacting them they are in alaska but got no response,I wanted a 375 winchester insert to turn it into a 375 jdj but could never get a hold of them

Jason F · « **Reply #6 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:21:53 AM »

Mca sports is the name of it

chilipepper917 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 27, 2011, 10:05:03 AM »

The name of the company who's website I saw was " Track of the wolf" they appear to specialize in muzzle loaders and older firearms. They have parts and other supplies as well.

Antietamgw · « **Reply #8 on:** April 27, 2011, 10:31:38 AM »

Quote from: chilipepper917 on April 27, 2011, 07:08:10 AM

My thought proccess was something like this. I found a site where you can buy liners by the inch. The 32-20 liner has an OD of .50". I was thinking about getting a donor 45-70 barrel and bore it out to .52ish. I was thinking I could do this with hand tools as I dont have a lathe. Good or bad Idea? Assuming I could get that part right I could loctite the new liner into place. Rent or buy a reamer and a Go/ No Go gage and then rework a new ejector-extractor. It seems like a small and inexpensive part so if it took a couple tries to get it right it wouldn't cost all that much. As mentioned I'm not sure I could do all this without metal working tools but I thought it might be a cool little project and give me a very cool little rifle if it all worked out.

Thanks again for the advice and ideas, please keep them coming.

Best regards,

Chili

.32-20 and 32 H&R (my preference) are popular liners. Redman's and TJ's (also my preference,by a long shot) make them. I wouldn't start with a donor barrel that had a rim recess or base diameter larger than the OD of your liner and would actually prefer it smaller. I'm thinking you mention .45-70 as it requires only a small amount to open the bore but what are you going to do with the extra .1 of rim recess? You could leave it but it would be there staring at you everytime you open the barrel. You don't need to ream to over .510. Use Loctite Sleeve Retainer (gorilla snot) to secure the liner. I suppose you can do this without a lathe if you had to but it would not be my preference. Actually, I think a decent job could be done using hand tools only, with the exception of cutting a close chamber. A complete chamber (concentric, round and of the right size!) by hand is tough, real tough. It would be much easier to crown the barrel by hand and get a good job than it would be to cut the chamber, especially .32-20 as opposed to .32 H&R. That is my opinion and I'm sure there will be disagreement. I figure you are looking for accuracy and not just a shootable liner. Personally, I see the extractor work as simple, almost an afterthought. Get a replacement extractor for .22 Hornet or something that can be shortened and a new rim recess cut. Likely you will have to anneal the extractor to finish it and cut the recess. I'd do the rim recess with the reamer, in the lathe, with a soft extractor, while it was set up for chambering. Are you planning on using .308 or .311 groove diameter barrel? Either way, you will want to be sure the pilot size on your reamer is correct for the size liner you use. Also, be sure that the chambering reamer is for a rifle barrel, with a proper leade and throat. Both chamberings are used in rifle and pistol so reamers are available either way. If you decide to rent the reamer, I'd try to get a removeable pilot reamer with a bushing of the size needed for your liner. If you get a TJ's liner, ask the bore diameter. Whatever he tells you, you can bank on. Is there a gunsmith or machinist around that would do the machine work for you, allowing you to do the rest? Happy tinkering!

Antietamgw · « **Reply #9 on:** April 27, 2011, 10:36:56 AM »

Quote from: chilipepper917 on April 27, 2011, 10:05:03 AM

The name of the company who's website I saw was " Track of the wolf" they appear to specialize in muzzle loaders and older firearms. They have parts and other supplies as well.

I believe they are TJ's liners. You can order direct from TJ's, in sizes Track doesn't list. No website that I know. I have their info sheet and contact info in the shop if you need it. Actually, saved on my phone: 859-635-5560

chilipepper917 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2011, 11:33:09 AM »

Antietamgw,

Thank you for the # and your thoughts. I have just started thinking about this whole project as I have a BC 45-70 and 38-55 barrel and thought it would be cool to have a 32-20 barrel for messing around with. Not to mention the style points if I get it done and it shoots well. LOL I have a Marlin CL and a Colt Lighting in 32-20 as well as all the brass and reloading stuff so that's what kinda lead me that direction. I also have the 32 HR mags for a pair of single six's I bought for the kids. I understand why the straight wall case would be far easier to ream compaired to the bottle neck of the 32-20. I have never attempted cutting a new chamber, what are the main reasons that cutting the chamber is so tough with out a lathe, Is it keeping everything centered and symmetrical? I am pretty good with tools and mech inclined. I don't have any machinest background other then tinkering and making some basic parts but would love to learn and start putting together a small home metal shop.

I really dint know anyone with a machine shop or gunsmith although I could probably find one. The one guy I just recently talked too wants to charge me 150 buck to shorten the shoulder on a barrel for a shotgun restoration project. Its not that I think its too much money as much as I didn't want to spend alot if there is a way I can do it myself. Is there anyone that posts on here that might be willing to take on a project like this? Thoughts on barrel size was .311, I primarily shoot cast bullets and I have a couple 1000 already. Accuracy, it would be nice if I could get it to shoot under 2" at 100 Yards off a rest.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and knowlege.

Best regards,

Chili

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2011, 12:30:41 PM »

You will also want to consider the twist rate. The std twist for little 32 s won't stabilize longer, heavier bullets than short, blunt ones under about 120 gr.
It would be nice to be able to play with 130-150 gr. If you wanted, and a 1:12, maybe a 1:14 would do it. That faster twist will also allow you to shoot slower velocity loads and still have enough rotation. All this and still have accuracy with the standard bullet and loads.
I'd go 32 H&R Mag and reload with carbide dies (you already know the shortcomings of the 32-20 for ease of reloading).

bikerbeans · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2011, 01:23:13 PM »

Quote from: chilipepper917 on April 27, 2011, 11:33:09 AM

Antietamgw,

what are the main reasons that cutting the chamber is so tough with out a lathe, Is it keeping everything centered and symmetrical?
Best regards,

Chili

\

Yes. When hand reaming you must be careful not to put sideways pressure on the reamer resulting in an out of round chamber. Also, reaming with a lathe at a constant RPM would give you a better cut. I think Fred M said you ream a chamber at 56 RPM which would be a little tough to do by hand.

Good luck with your project.

BB

Antietamgw · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2011, 04:19:41 AM »

Yup, keeping things concentric is critical. Speed and feed of cut makes a big difference in surface finish as well as wear and tear on reamers. Deepening an existing chamber is different from cutting a new one. Send me a PM if you want, I can send you some odds and ends that might help (or hinder) making a decision.

chilipepper917 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 28, 2011, 08:29:01 AM »

Antieamga,

Thank you for your kind offer, I'll take you up on it.

Best regards,

Chili

trotterlg · « **Reply #15 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:39:52 AM »

You will likely find it much easier and end up with a better product if you just put a .32 barrel into a shotgun stub. The British 303 barrels work great for the 32-20 and shoot cast bullets very well. I have done about a half dozen of them and every one seems happy with them. Larry

handishooter · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2011, 08:27:16 AM »

I did this about 4 years ago, in 25-20. I lined a 28ga barrel with a liner I bought from track of the wolf, this was my first experience and I drilled it by hand, brownells sells an 18 inch bit just for this purpose, you drill from the muzzle and then from the breach. I used acraglass to install my liner then modified the extractor and cut the chamber. It has made a great small game rifle and still shoot it today. I am going to do another one in .32 s&w long, this one should be a little easier because i now have a better shop set up. I sent my receiver off to get several shotgun barrels installed then will use them as donors. Got a 410 installed so I can drill it out and install the 32 liner. Last time I actually used a liner with a 1 in 10 twist which is more suited for the 25-35 because the outside diameter fit the 28ga better.

Here is a link to a brownells tech article that goes through the barrel lining process.

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-143%20Barrel%20Liner.pdf

If I can figure it out I will post pics of my 25.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:52:42 AM »

The old way of installing a liner is to bore the barrel a hair undersized, then heat it in an oven. This makes it expand so you can slip the liner in (gotta work fast here!). When it cools it shrinks back down so tight the liner won't go anyplace. After that, even if the lined barrel gets hot, both the liner and barrel will expand so it still can't come out. You might give the folks at Track a call. They were knowledgeable and helpful in my dealings with them.

-Kees-

gcrank1 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2011, 12:24:56 PM »

Thats just what Im saying Handishooter! Glad to hear you did it in a fast twist even for the 25-20, have you tried any 100ish - 117gr. bullets?
LockTite's red (forget the number) 'sleeve' retainer works great too, the hole c
needs to be about .020- .030" bigger than the liner OD ( thats .010-.015" on a side), so you do have room to work with, but still have to be fast. You make sure it can slide easily through, coat it up and DONT stop half way through.
Pay attention to if about 1" of the ends of the liner need to be 'bobbed' off to get to true rifling. If so you only need to do the muzzle end as you will be chambering the other.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2011, 10:57:38 AM »

Stop it ya'll,

now I got this 327 Fed thought runnin through my head. Dang it! An itch, and I don't know how to scratch it.

DP

handishooter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2011, 12:47:55 PM »

I have experimented with some 115gr cast bullets over 10grs of 2400, the bullet stabilizes well and is accurate. But case life is terrible. I was just experimenting with these to see what the rifle could do. My standard load is an 85gr cast bullet with 5gr of unique, shoots groups less than 2 inches at 100 yards and chronographs just over 1500 fps.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2011, 12:56:28 PM »

If you are full length resizing I can believe poor case life, same with 32-20.
You need to load a fully fire formed case mouth with a bullet dia. that fits it, or make a neck sizer to just squeeze it down a tad if your mould throws them a tiny bit too small to hold, then for 2400 a little crimp or seat long so they are hard into the lands.

handishooter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:03:43 PM »

I neck size only, it really extends the case life. Several years ago I ordered a custom set of lee collet dies for the 25/20, best $50 I ever spent for reloading dies. Came with the collet die and dead length bullet seater. I would recommend it for the 32/20 also.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:49:31 PM »

You Lucky Dog (and smart fella)!
Those collet neck sizer dies are dandy especially with lead bullets. A lot of guys dont realize that the std sizer dies are meant to undersize the necks a fair bit, or even more than a fair bit, for jacketed bullets and wonder why their cast bullets dont work very well. At the reduced velo and pressure the body of the case, once filling the chamber, doesnt need resizing, and the neck only enough, if at all to hold a throat filling cast bullet dia.
I typically can get up to 1450 fps and have no sticky case issues, though I usually find accuracy well below that.
The joy of joys is NO resizing needed at all, deprime, reprime, charge and seat a neck/throat filling bullet and go!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:40:11 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on April 30, 2011, 12:24:56 PM

Thats just what Im saying Handishooter! Glad to hear you did it in a fast twist even for the 25-20, have you tried any 100ish - 117gr. bullets?
LockTite's red (forget the number) 'sleeve' retainer works great too, the hole c
needs to be about .020- .030" bigger than the liner OD ( thats .010-.015" on a side), so you do have room to work with, but still have to be fast. You make sure it can slide easily through, coat it up and DONT stop half way through.
Pay attention to if about 1" of the ends of the liner need to be 'bobbed' off to get to true rifling. If so you only need to do the muzzle end as you will be chambering the other.

I have shot some Hornady 100G RN out of two different 25-20 with STD twist with mixed results... A cast, dead soft 100+ RN might be a great small game loading...

CW

handishooter · « **Reply #25 on:** May 01, 2011, 03:31:51 PM »

I have an old ideal bullet mold that cast a 85gr RNFP bullet, i cast pure lead, and use them as they come out of the mold, I just lube them and they work great. It is an excellent small game round.