440C or ATS-34

[Tony]

Recently while at a local Saturday market I found a couple of Benchmade knives that I like. One knife has a blade made from 440C and the other is made with ATS-34. My question is which one is trulely the better steel. I have done a litte research and found out that 440C usually has a carbon content of 0.95-1.2 and ATS-34 has 1.05. Both also seem to have a Rockwell hardness around 58-61. So this brings me to my question: which is the better of the two steels? My use of either one these knives would range from cutting 550 cord, gutting and cleaning salmon, and just average everyday cutting uses. Both knives are pocket knives and I cannot remember what models they are being that it does really matter to me. I just wish I could buy both, then I would have the best of both worlds.

Tony

[Joel]

Well, In my own experience I like both steels.Ats-34 does hold an edge longer thand 440C will, so in that sense, it's a better steel.  When I first started making knives, I used 440C and found that, Heat treated to a Rc of 58, it was a really good steel. However, some of my Pig Hunting fanatic customers down in florida and Mississippi, wanted a steel that held an edge longer.  That's when I switched to Ats-34, with a Rc of 60-61 and never had a complaint after that.  Each steel has an "optimum Rc" that it works best at; the usual trade off between edge holding and strength.  ATS-34 is the better steel in the edge holding department PROVIDED it has that higher RC.  I now use 154CM almost exclusively(ATS-34 is the Japanese Version of it), and Have NEVER had anyone complain about the edge holding; even though its not as good as D-2,or Bg-42, or CPM30(from what I've read about this steel).
As Always, it depends on your needs.  440C is a "prettier" steel(takes a high polish) and a little more rust resistant than ATS-34.  34 holds an edge longer and better.  A knife made of ATS-34 SHOULD last longer, due to the less frequency required for sharpening.  Boils down to you, as always.  Either way, you get a decent blade.

[razmuz]

I'm no expert, but from past use I've found that their both hard to sharpen if your in a hurry.  If you just use one for hunting once or twice a year Ok, but if your a working man or clean a lot of fish get a cheapo that you can sharpen real quick.  For what it's worth.
PS  most of the hard steel are for knife loonies snob appeal.

[Joel]

Razmuz, Ya ol troll. Welcome back.  Haven't seen one of your "knowledgeable" opinions in a bit.
Only problem with this little blurb of your's is thant neither 440C or ATS-34 are particularly hard to sharpen.  Granted, One of those ol rust-in -30 seconds Carbon steel blades are easier to sharpen, an some of them do hold a decent edge, but that's not what the man wanted to know.Of course there's also those fine blades made out of 420 stainless that all the factories use cause it's so freakin cheap.  Holds an edge for 10 seconds, and isn't technically even steel(not enough carbon); althought there are 10 varietys of 420 out there and some of them(2) might actually qualify as steel.  "sides factory knives made out of either 440C or ats-34, are right cheap these days.  Just got the latest Smokey Mountain Knive Works Catalog, and you can buy a fine knife there for "cheap knife" prices.  Good ta see ya again.

[razmuz]

It's easy to say knife sharping is easy if you got the right equiptment.  Most knife loonies forget that the average Joe doesn't have grinders, belt sanders and such.  All you need is a good old Buck, Case or S.Waldon.  Gimmick metal is OK, but you don't need it.  Most knife guys don't even use one that much, they mostly go to knife shows and ooh &aww over each others stuff.

OL TROLL

[TimWieneke]

Given the choice between the two, I would say the ATS-34 provided it's made right.  I have a kershaw folder in ATS-34 and for a stainless steel, I have been impressed with it's performance thus far.  If you can find one you like, I've heard many a good about BG-42, but can't confirm as I've never used it.

As far as resharpening, I'll be honest.  If you invest in a good DMT diamond sharpening "stone" (metal and plastic - not sure what to call them), you will find that they sharpen every knife you have much easier than a traditional stone.  I carry the red one.  It's great for putting a working edge on in just a few passes and you use water - not oil.

 
Now, as to Joel's comments,

"Haven't seen one of your "knowledgeable" opinions in a bit."

Hmmmm.....  Let's check the knowledge here.

"Granted, One of those ol rust-in -30 seconds Carbon steel blades are easier to sharpen, an some of them do hold a decent edge, but that's not what the man wanted to know."

Oh, where to start.   :roll:  Let's start with holding a "decent edge".  Check the ABS 2002 Cutting Contest.  Guess what got first place - a super duper cryotreated stainless steel?  Nope - John Fitch plain old 1084.  What got second place?  Surely the super duper techno steel was here.  Nope - Rob Rossdeutcher forged a kukri from a .99 cent prybay imported from China that he told me acted like 1050.  

Now as to "rusting in 30 seconds".  Psst - all steel rusts.  There is this thing called oiling your blade (this doesn't even take into account, blueing, browning, powder coating).  It involves the arduous and detestable task of putting a thin coating of oil on your knife blade about once a week.  Granted - if the gentleman gets these salmon from saltwater, I would recommend a stainless steel to him.  But don't be fooled by marketing - without care, stainless will rust.  Oh yeah - ever read the "Backwoodsman Journal"?  See all those century old knives Ritchie sells inside the back cover?  They're all "rust in 30 seconds" carbon steel knives.  1,576,800,000 seconds later, they still seem to be in pretty good shape.


"there's also those fine blades made out of 420 stainless that all the factories use cause it's so freakin cheap.  Holds an edge for 10 seconds, and isn't technically even steel(not enough carbon); althought there are 10 varietys of 420 out there and some of them(2) might actually qualify as steel."  

I couldn't agree with you more on this statement.  Given their fierce marketing about the performance of their carbon v steel (which in my humble opinion - is the best performing commercially produced steel blade out there under $150) Cold Steel ought to hang their heads in shame over this latest batch of 420 subzero quenched crap.  Cold Steel is bending over the clientele it has built up over the years with this poorly performing, awful metal.

Tim

[Joel]

Interesting comments, but a bit lacking in knowledge..

ABS2002:  ABS is the American BLADESMITH Society = knife forgers; 99.8 percent of whom forge high carbon steels.  There is a couple that forge stainess, but no one in ABS pays a lot of attention to them.
If you care to read up some on those rope cutting contests, you might find out the criteria for a winning knife is usually a combination of the one with the best edge/blade geometry/real hard edge(useless for almost any sort of real chopping----chips immediatedly), and the best technique on a given day.  The actual steel doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot.  Its just steel. Chopping rope is hardly a real test for a knife, It's a specialized little game they play.  Maybe, as a knifemaker I look at it from a different perspective,  You haven't stated how many you've made, and what steels you've used to make them,  so I can't compare hands on knowledge here. I've used W-2, A-2, O-l, ATs-34(154CM), D-2 and BG-42.

As to your real cute pssssst all steels rust; that's exactly what I put on my data sheets on the knives I sell, and I sell almost strictly stainless steel.  In the everday world of the everyday hunter(as opposed to knife freak)they want stainless.  True it will rust, but takes a lot longer than you imply.   21.5 years in the navy, most of it on sea duty, did teach me that some steels rust a whole LOT faster than others.  And Carbon rusts REAL quick, unless you maintain it constantly. It goes without saying that any blade should have protection.  I suggest you get yourself in a wet, saltwater environment and carry a carbon and a stainless blade, use them side by side in a WORKING environment, then come back and tell me the results. I already know what they will be.

Lastly RazMuz is a trouble making troll, as far as I am concerned.  If you read the initial question, and had the oppurtunity to see some of his other ill-mannered responses to posts more carefully, you might pick up on that.  I moderate this forum, and don't depend on deletes to handle people like that. Do it my own way.

Never Had anything to do with CS knives, but some of them have a good rep.  Anyone who reads the metallury on 420 steels will stay away from them unless they have absolute proof that the one they're getting is one of the couple of halfway decent versions.  Buck is doing the same thing, and it drives me crazy.  Wish they would SAY what 420 they use.  In the meantime, If I was to buy a knife, it won't be one of theirs; just on suspicion.

[TimWieneke]

Here's that thread!  Don't you hate it when you start a forum debate and then forget where it was.   :-D   Been looking all over CKD, Blade Forums and Sword forum for this thread....   :roll:   Anyhoo, back into debate mode.


Joel,

1.  Statement:  "Interesting comments, but a bit lacking in knowledge.. "  :roll:  
Reply:  Again, let's test the knowledge of Joel's response.  Guess I'll have to cite sources this time.

2.  Statement:  "ABS2002: ABS is the American BLADESMITH Society = knife forgers; 99.8 percent of whom forge high carbon steels."  
Reply:  I'd like to see where you got that number of 99.8 percent.

3.  Statement:  "There is a couple that forge stainess, but no one in ABS pays a lot of attention to them."  
Reply:  Is this supposed to be an endorsement for stainless steel?  Aside from that, I'd like to ask about the ABS members who forge stainless that "no one in ABS pays a lot of attention to", would one of those ignored ABS members be Wayne Goddard?

4.  Statement:  "If you care to read up some on those rope cutting contests, you might find out the criteria for a winning knife is usually a combination of the one with the best edge/blade geometry/real hard edge(useless for almost any sort of real chopping----chips immediatedly), and the best technique on a given day."
Reply:  I referred to the ABS ABS 2002 Cutting Contest also known as the "Sharp Man" cutting contest.  Since you challenged me to read up on this contest, I did - again.  Out of the 5 cutting criteria in the contest, only 1 had anything to do with cutting rope.  The other 4 criteria (80%) of the contest had absolutely nothing to do with cutting rope.  3 of those criteria were chopping contests where a real hard edge would have been (and were) disqualified.  Perhaps you should read up on these items before telling someone else to.  Here is a link to a copy of the article for your benefit:

http://www.russianhunting.com/kings_of_blade_swing.html


5.  Statement:  "Maybe, as a knifemaker I look at it from a different perspective, You haven't stated how many you've made, and what steels you've used to make them, so I can't compare hands on knowledge here. I've used W-2, A-2, O-l, ATs-34(154CM), D-2 and BG-42. "
Reply:  Lol...  What's next?  Unzip and measure?  :roll:  I thought this was a thead about knife "using", but oh well.....  The only barstock I've ever purchased is 1084 and 1095 so that's the only steel I know for sure.  Beyond that, I've just used spark-tested old files and chisels (and railroad spikes for hawks) so frankly I have no idea (and could care less) what label has been given to them.  If they don't oil quench, I try water quench.  If that doesn't work, I try brine quench.  If that doesn't work I throw the piece of steel away and work on another of the hundreds of pieces of steel I have lying around.  As to how many I've made, I honestly have no idea.  I just know that the next one is always a little better than the last.  

6.  Statement:  "In the everday world of the everyday hunter(as opposed to knife freak)they want stainless."
Reply:  Look into the gun cabinet of the everyday world of the everday hunter.  See all those blued metal on the barrels, actions, etc... on those guns of the everyday hunter.  Know what that is?  It's "rust in 30 seconds" carbon steel.  How can it be that the everyday hunter who cannot possibly have the "knife freak" skills to clean, oil and maintain a knife blade with no moving parts has the skill to clean, oil and maintain "rust in 30 seconds" carbon steel on his firearms?  Could it be that marketing has more to do with the sale of stainless knives than performance?  In all fairness, I have a BG-42 blade by SOG and have been very impressed with it's performance.  I also had a Kershaw ATS-34 blade that was pretty good (makes one wonder about Buck's ATS-34).  But the truth is I like these 2 blades only because I have found they have performed as well as "rust in 30 seconds" carbon blades that I have to oil once every week or so.

7.  Statement:  "21.5 years in the navy, most of it on sea duty, did teach me that some steels rust a whole LOT faster than others....I suggest you get yourself in a wet, saltwater environment and carry a carbon and a stainless blade, use them side by side in a WORKING environment, then come back and tell me the results. I already know what they will be."
Reply:  Did I not say, "Granted - if the gentleman gets these salmon from saltwater, I would recommend a stainless steel to him."  Joel, I gotta wonder if you're reading my posts before replying to them.  Of course if you're working in saltwater, I would recommend stainless steel.  You don't have to pull the naval service card on this point.  We were always in agreement.


8.  Statement:  "Lastly RazMuz is a trouble making troll, as far as I am concerned...etc...etc..etc...."  
Reply:  Well, I'm not going to argue with you on that point...lol     All I was commenting on was your comments toward carbon steel blades.  Your moderating of Razmuz and his comments is your business and I rather like the way you do things.  I just happen to respectfully disagree with you.   :grin:  I really don't want this thing to go to far, so I'll let this be my last comment and let the whole thing die....

Tim

P.S.  As an aside note to those reading this exchange.  I found out through other threads that Joel is a grinder - a.k.a. he uses the stock removal method where a knife if ground to shape.  My approach is forging where steel is heated and beat to shape with a hammer and anvil.  These are 2 completely different approaches that often result in the practitioners of the 2 disagreeing completely with one another.     In the end, both approaches applied well make good knives.  If Joel is as passionate about his approach as he seems, I do not doubt he makes a very good knife.