thanks guys, i have hundreds of rounds in the other stuff, gold dot,hornady, winchester including the original black talon,federal. 125,140,158,180grain but the least i have is the black talon and i want a load set up for penetration of winshields and wehicle body panels and i believe the solid copper might hold up best. not into hard cast, thought about tmj but in a pinch the hollow point might serve dual role. again many thanks to all, great bunch of folks here at gb's searlock