good defensive load for 9mm??

[blackdirt beagles]

i have a KAHR MK1 in 9mm. whats a good load with plenty of knockdown power for home defense situations?

[grendel]

I was going to be a smart ass and say a good 45acp, but in the hope of not starting to much of a flame war, all I will say is that I have not loaded any 9mm ammo for close on to 20 years.  After I sold my last Hi Power I did not have the need.  However if I was going to use (either with factory or handloads) a 9mm for home defense I would buy or load some with some good JHP bullets in the 115g range.  Then take them to the rifle range and test them.  Soak 20' or so of newspaper or phone books in all the water they can suck up over night.  Take those to the range and shoot them with your intended load at 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15 yards.  Or what ever range makes the most sense to you and your situation.  You also might try and wrapping the paper in several layers of old jeans or something and see if that has any effect.  Some, have in the past, reported that some HP bullets could sometimes plug with cloth and so not expand.
 
I would not place to much faith in the "Heavy" but slower bullets in the 9mm.  Go for a light to medium weight HP moving fast.  Then maybe, if your lucky you might get a permement wound cavity as deep and as wide as that of my 225g WFN out of my 45acp. (I tried, lord knows I tried)
 
YMMV and as always my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
Grendel
 
 People who are willing to rely on the government to keep them safe  are pretty much standing on Darwin's mat, pounding on the door,  screaming, "Take me, take me!"
Carl Jacobs

[redial]

Grendel's pretty much nailed it.

I have some 124 +P+ Hydra Shoks left over from my time 10-8, so that's what I carry in my Glock 19.

Forget the 147's. Decidedly unimpressive. Good for suppressed subguns. Not worth doodly in a pistol.

Cheers!

Redial

[DEPUTY]

Winchester ranger 127+p+ is on top of the pile right now  and remember shot placment kills, not caliber

[blackdirt beagles]

thanks guys....believe me id rather have my old 45acp back but as the saying goes...the 9mm i got is a heck of a lot better than the 45 i dont.

[papajohn428]

If you're able to do some testing, I'd look into the Speer Gold Dot, or any good fast 115 JHP, +P or not.  As has been said, the heavy bullets aren't worth doodly out of a pistol.  If it were me buying a new auto, I'd look hard at the 357 SIG, good ballistics in a standard sized gun.
PJ

[DEPUTY]

Most any 9mm in the mid range 115 to 127 grain is good choice, 115 seam to come apart a little to easy and lose more mass verse the 124-127 range loads, the 357 is a nice round if you like more noise and flash current loading show that the winchester ranger sxt in the 127+p+ equal the best of the 357 sig loads in real world shootings!

[legacy38]

Winchester ranger 127+p+ is on top of the pile right now  and remember shot placment kills, not caliber

I concur on both counts.

[Mikey]

Interesting perspective on those 9mms.  I read (a while back) that the Remington something or another 115 gn HP +P+ had hit the top of the list but what the hay.  It seems that regardless of the caliber or cartridge case that's pushing the bullet, once you get above the 1200'/sec range with that weight range 9mm bullet (115-125+) all those different 9mms become more reliable.  This includes, of course, the +P+ 9mms, the 38 Super, the 9x23, the 357 Sig, and even the vaunted 357 magnum with its 125 gn load.  There is, as you know, little practical difference between those various cartridges when the 115-125 gn bullets begin hitting the 1200'/sec velocity range.  

However, you statement about shot placement is most aqccurate.  Mikey

[legacy38]

I think that the Golden Sabre (sp?) was on the top of the list for 9mm ammo in one of the gun rags.  I'm sold on the Winchester Ranger though.

I am of the opinion, however, that any of the top quality defensive ammo will do its job of the shooter does likewise.

[Cameron]

I would suggest Cor Bon 115 grain jacketed hollow point ammo for a plus p application (1350 feet per second from a 4" barrel)and Federal 115(9bp on the box) grain jacketed hollow point for a non plus p aplication.I carry both and have never had a failure to feed or any other reliability issues.
I would also refer you to the writings of Massad Ayoob(Guns Magazine and Lethal Force Institute/Police officer/expert witness) as well as Evan Marshall/Ed Sanow(published authors of book on stopping powerand cops) for documented real world results in actual shootings for both rounds.If my memory serves me right the Cor Bon ammo was somewhere in the range of 96% one shot (torso hit) for stopping power.
Hopefully none of us will ever find the need to determine the applicability of either rounds stopping power,but much better to be prepared rather than hope for the best at a critical moment.

[marv]

I ;oas 115 Win  Guletts in front 5 grainsof Universal, get 1100+
in a 2 3/4 in S&W wheel gun , useing full clips 3 to 4 in groups at 10 to 15 yds. I DON'T THINK he'll walk away with 5 in the throat. Maev.

[Swat Dude]

I would suggest the corbon powerball. This is my "duty" ammo in my Kahr PM-9. It feeds reliably and shoots fine. It also avoids the pitfalls heavy clothing can have on some 9mm rounds. I also agree that the ranger is a good round as well.

http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_40.htm

If you really want to compare energy of rounds, check this out:

http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1609

[S.S.]

Be Careful with those +p+ loads, They will void the warranty on most
pistols on the market. And for good reason. I have seen Beretta, Glock,
S&W, Ruger and a few others develop problems when shooting +p+
ammo. A recoil Buffer of some sort may help some of the problems,
But I have seen 3 barrels split also. The slide jammed in the rearward
position on the Glock and the Ruger. The Beretta barrel split, the S&W
barrel cracked just ahead of the chamber. and I remember one guide rod
bending but I can't remember which pistol it was in. Most 9mm semi-auto's
simply are not designed to handle that kind of pressure.  I warned a fella'
about +p+ ammo at the police academy and he was a Non-Believer
"My Pistol can handle it !!!" Two clips later the slide stop sheared off!
"This was a catastrophic failure" The doctors were able to save his thumb,
but he did loose his right ear lobe. I think his pistol was some sort of
DETONICS, but I cannot remember the model. Use the ammo the weapon
was created for! Or you are just asking for trouble.

[Swat Dude]

Be Careful with those +p+ loads, They will void the warranty on most
pistols on the market. And for good reason. I have seen Beretta, Glock,
S&W, Ruger and a few others develop problems when shooting +p+
ammo. A recoil Buffer of some sort may help some of the problems,
But I have seen 3 barrels split also. The slide jammed in the rearward
position on the Glock and the Ruger. The Beretta barrel split, the S&W
barrel cracked just ahead of the chamber. and I remember one guide rod
bending but I can't remember which pistol it was in. Most 9mm semi-auto's
simply are not designed to handle that kind of pressure.  I warned a fella'
about +p+ ammo at the police academy and he was a Non-Believer
"My Pistol can handle it !!!" Two clips later the slide stop sheared off!
"This was a catastrophic failure" The doctors were able to save his thumb,
but he did loose his right ear lobe. I think his pistol was some sort of
DETONICS, but I cannot remember the model. Use the ammo the weapon
was created for! Or you are just asking for trouble.

I have seen many a target shooter blow their gun up with re-loads but I have never witnessed a failure due to Corbon Ammo. I'm not saying I use this stuff for target practice because it is too dang expensive, but I always shoot 50 rounds of my "duty" ammo through the gun I intend to carry it in and I have never experienced a failure of any type with Corbon ammo. Corbon is tested to the "Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute" pressure standards for safety in all firearms rated for +P ammunition use. Always check your owner's manual to see if your firearm is capable of handling +P loads.

[Bikenut]

First off mention was made a couple of times about heavier bullets not being worth much out of a pistol. Why not?

Secondly mention was made of Marshall and Sanow as being an authoratative source for defensive ammo information. If memory serves me correctly there is much controversy about Marshall and Sanow's statistics and how those guys put those statistics together. Just the fact that there IS a controversy puts their information into the catagory of perhaps not being reliable ... at least it does for me.

Thirdly........ if I'm not mistaken there is not much in the way of statistics available for which round is most effective. As far as I know no one has taken all the 9mm ammo available and shot attackers with each different round in order to come up with a standard by which all rounds could be judged. The statistics we have available are only for those rounds that someone kept track of... mostly the rounds used by police and the results thereof.

Fourth....... ballistic numbers are wonderful things as is shooting ballistic geletin........ but both don't mean squat when talking about shooting human beings since there are so many variables with a human being... variables like differences in body weight, the state of mind at the time, presence of drugs, even the level of adrenalin present.

Please don't get this post wrong as I'm not disparaging those who have expressed their opinions so far. I'm trying to explain that, for me at least, I don't think there is any one round in any caliber out of any type of gun that is a "magic bullet" guaranteed to stop an attacker just by merit of the size, weight, or amount of powder contained of the round itself.

However, I am totally convinced that the very best thing a person can do is to practice consistantly hitting what is being shot at. A .22 short that hits an attacker is far better than the .45 that misses. That said I wouldn't recommend carrying a .22 for self defense but once in the 9mm and larger caliber range I don't think it matters much which round is used as long as the bullet hits the attacker. I also am convinced that anyone who expects to only need to fire one shot relying on the "magic bullet" one shot stop to end the bad situation is going to end up a victim.

Multiple rounds that actually hit the attacker in center of mass is what will be effective regardless of the caliber/weight/ballistics. And even multiple rounds don't guarantee the attacker will be stopped but it is the best that can be done........... unless a person is a perfect marksman and can hit directly between the eyes, under probable low light conditions, with the attacker moving and ducking, while the shooter experiences the disorientation, confusion, and adrenalin rush the situation itself will induce.

Basicly what I'm saying is that I believe the mind set (survive!) and accuracy skills (hit the target!) of the defender are far more important than the caliber/weight/design/ballistics of the round used.

Feel free to disagree since I'm always open to new information.

[Mikey]

Bikenut:  there's nothing to disagree with in your last post, but rather a lot of good advice and plenty to agree with.

Years ago I met a couple of British SAS fellas when I was in Vietnam.  We carried the 45 and they the P-35 Hi Power.  Everybody used ball ammo and there wasn't any discussion about which round was better, considering that many of us over there were still using WWII surplus arms and ammo and both the 9mm in the hands of the German military and the 45 in our hands both steadfastly accounted for themselves on the field of combat.  But, whenever we talked pistolry or pistol craft, they always used the 'double tap' technique and they never failed.  I thought about again just last week.....

Just last week I was talking with a NYS Trooper who bemoaned her issue 9mm and ammo and I used the same discussion you used as well as my experiences with the SAS fellas in an effort to give her a better handle on her issue equipment.  I even invited her to come to my club for a shoot on that Saturday morning.  I really didn't think she would show but brought a couple of boxes of mil-spec 9mm ball just to be sure and was rewarded with pleasant company, the opportunity to help teach another shooter, the chance to properly present a long time card carrying concealed weapons permit holder to a State Trooper, and a much lighter trip home.   They don't give our State Troopers a lot of practice but expect a lot from them.  

I used some pretty old teaching techniques and advice similar to what you provided and had some great success in seeing the improvements in her shooting almost immediately.  Then she started having fun shooting which is something she had not experienced before.  She felt good, I felt good, and I had one more uniformed officer who knew enough about their issue sidearms not to make fatal mistakes - I felt really good about that.  

The question of ammo and the famous one-shot-stop issue came up and my response was similar to yours and that of the SAS fellers and once she had practiced a bit and had gotten the hang of how she could use her sidearm, her confidence and ability started to show rapid improvement and the one-shot-stop question never came up again.

You're right.  The basics work and work best when you practice.   Glad to hear it and thank you.  Mikey.

[Bikenut]

Mikey...

You have my admiration and respect. It is not often a civilian will take the time and effort to meet, greet, and treat, a police officer as just another shooter. I'm not an LEO but just another shooter yet I firmly believe in going the extra distance to help other shooters become better shooters. Oops... I don't mean that to say I'm something special as a shooter either because I'm surely not. Every time I help someone at the range, be they new to the sport or not, I learn something too. To me this is just another pleasurable facet of the sport I've grown to love.

I agree with you in that police officers have a great deal expected of them.... and they are not given adequate training.... or rather... they are given barely adequate training... with their firearms. This is a disservice to them since it puts them in harm's way without the benefit of the best training.... but it also is a disservice to the public since it puts the public in harm's way from the officer's lack of the best training. I would prefer knowing an officer will most probably be accurate enough to shoot the bad guy next to me without shooting the good guy... ME! Sadly though this isn't the case with many officers simply because the bean counters won't free up the budget to pay for the best training available. Although, in defense of the bean counters, it is usually the general public who is at fault for screaming about high taxes to fund the budget while still expecting the police to be expert marksmen. I am of the opinion that there are some things that should be paid for without a second thought... and firearm/tactical training for police is one of them. I wish I could afford to attend one of the very few excellent shooting schools out there!

I also want to compliment you Mikey..... because your efforts with the officer you helped showed her that CCW holders are responsible, caring, and intelligent people. Great PR..... although I know that isn't why you did it

[redial]

Bikenut,

My comment about heavy ball was based on my department's experiences with the 147 subsonic vs the 124 Hydra Shok. This is a 1400-man department that averages several dozen police shootings each year, year after year. Over time, it amounts to hundreds of shootings.

We found that the heavy ball just didn't take perps out of the fight like the HydraShoks did, that's all. Ours was the WW subsonic, FWIW.

You're absolutely right about minimal training within departments. As an FTO (Field Training Officer), I spent the first couple weeks with each new rookie making sure he could (and would!) cover my ass! Most were pretty good. Some took a bit more work, but all eventually came around.

Kinda glad all that's behind me .....

Cheers!

Redial

[Bikenut]

Redial? I hope my post wasn't taken as knocking yours, or any other's, post because it certainly wasn't intended that way. I was only trying to point out that there just isn't enough data... let me rephrase that a bit.... reliable data whether or not one round is better than another when used against a human being.

Now having said that I must make an exception since there is lots of data available (including your dept's experience) that proves a hollow point round is more effective in producing more damage than ball rounds since the more the bullet expands the more damage it does.

I wish there were more data available as to whether a light and fast hollow point is more effective than a slow heavy hollow point. Then add in the Hydra-Shok pillar in the middle of a hollow point to see if that design is more effective. FWIW I use Hydra-Shok ammunition in my self defense guns but there isn't any real data (that I'm aware of) that says the pillar in the middle is any better than a basic hollow point.

Unfortunately I think we will simply have to wait until there is a large data base drawn from actual shootings to be able to definitively answer the ... light & fast vs heavy & slow ... question. But even then there will be a bunch of variables because the victims (perps?) themselves bring a host of variables into it. Such as... some people who suffer an extremely minor wound from a shooting immediately fall down and quit fighting simply because they realize they've been shot and assume they are gravely injured while others suffer multiple fatal wounds but continue fighting until their body simply stops moving. In the first instance even a .22 short in a finger would end the fight but in the latter instance 15 well placed hollow point .45's wouldn't end the fight until the guy literally ran out of blood to the brain.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or act like I know it all. I sure don't know it all but I do know there just isn't a single "magic bullet" that is guaranteed to stop an assailant. When I am asked which gun/caliber/ammunition a person should use in a self defense gun my answer is always.......... a gun that fits their hand naturally in a caliber they can consistantly hit a target with regardless of how big or small that caliber is and to use hollow point ammunition they are also consistantly able to hit the target with. For some people that happens to be a .45... for others it is a 9mm... and for a few it is a .22LR.... and it could be anything in between all of those. A 9mm 147gr. is the biggest I can go and still place multiple shots in center of mass and my lady's limit is a .32 in any gr. weight bullet before she begins to be inaccurate. Which one is best? Neither and both depending on who is doing the shooting.

Upon thinking about what I just said about mine and my lady's caliber/bullet weight limits perhaps there simply isn't, and never will be, the perfect bullet weight/caliber for everyone but it will always have to be something tailored to the individual shooter.

[redial]

No offense taken, lad!

For clarification, I use the term "ball" as a generic word for bullet, as many military and other uniformed geezers do (since I'm both).  Our 147's were indeed HP's that were meant to expand. They still under-impressed us. Oh well. Lesson learned.

IMO, the best handgun in the world is the one you're holding when the defecation hits the oscillation. Also IMO, the best things to practice are finding cover and shooting on the move. Speed is armor. Don't rely on your gatt, use your head! Just my two cents.

All the best,

Redial