Author Topic: What rifle would you recommend for........ (Read 1599 times)

teddy12b · « **on:** March 30, 2009, 06:39:01 AM »

What iron sighted rifle would you recommend for long range shooting?

I was watching a show on the history channel about the 1903 springfield (think that's right) and was amazed when these guys started talking about iron sighted rifles for shooting out to 1000 yards. I've often thought about buying one of these old warhorses, but never have since I don't really know what I'd be looking for in one.

Don't get me wrong, I like a nice scope, but there's also something about being able to hit a target with iron sights too.

Anyone here shooting long range with iron sights? I'd love to get a 30-06 with iron sights and give it a try, but that's mostly because I already reload for that caliber.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2009, 02:07:46 PM »

Teddy, the old springfield had sights that were regulated for long range shooting. In the Camp Perry Matches, my old pal used a .30-06 model 70 bull gun for certain matches. He used both iron sights and a scope. The irons were peep sights. I believe some of the springfields also had peeps, but I could easily be wrong. You could take any factory rifle and put a peep on it and do some long shooting. It is amazing what can be done with irons if one pratices. Elmer Keith killed a mulie at about 600 yards with a .44 mag. and irons on a 6" S & W, but he was probably one of the best long range handgun shots of all time.

As for the Springfield they are pretty expensive now days. When I was a young man, I could have bought all I wanted for 25=40 bucks. But those days are gone forever. There are all kinds of little things with these rifles that make them special. My pal I mentioned earlier had a star ga. springfield. It had a little star if I remember correctly on the muzzle. That meant it was a better quality barrel than the regular rifles.

I know very little about the 03's except what I picked up from him years ago. I wish I would have bought a couple when they were cheap.

hope this helps a bit.

BBF · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2009, 09:17:48 AM »

Who and how was Elmer's shot measured?

I'd a thought at that range the boolit would have bounced off or the deer wasn't there anymore.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2009, 02:22:52 PM »

I shoot pistols with guys than can make it mighty uncomfortable for you if they choose to shoot at you at long range. Most folks have no concept of what can be done with iron sights, or a powerful sixgun. Elmer regularly shot his guns at long range. He was born in 1899, and for most of his younger years until he was probably in his middle 50's he shot every day. At one time he lived in eastern Oregon, and shot almost every day across an open basin at a target 880 yards away. While he didn't hit every shot, he knew what he was doing. Even on the buck he shot at long range, I believe he shot most if not all the ammo in the S & W. It had been hit by another guy with a rifle. Most younger folks maybe never heard of him, but he was the genuine article. Elmer forgot more about shooting than most people today know. While he had his detractors, all who knew him repected his ability to shoot. Wether handgun, shotgun, or rifle, he was one of the few who mastered all three. As far as shooting at long range, he relieved lots of unbelievers of their cash when they bet against him and his pistols.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2009, 02:36:08 PM »

Believe that Mulie shot is in one of his books. I read "Hell, I Was There!", his autobiography, a lot of years ago. Sort of remember it was in that one, check your local library, I know it's in ours. He stated he had a surveyor measure it for him. Being from Maine, I sort of went, HUH?? However, 18 years in Wyoming and it's more of "great shot"! I've watched a lot of guys "walk" their revolvers out to the 500 meter gong at the local shooting range. Can be done, which is basically what Elmer did. By his own admission, he hit it on the last shot. And as posted, he did excessive long shots a lot and was good at it.....Wish I Were There!

Regards,
Sweetwater

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2009, 02:45:21 PM »

Sweetwater, thanks for the info. Keith was quite a man. Met him several times. His country around Salmon was wonderful for learning long range shooting.

Elmer was a heck of a shot and wondeful person. You were right about walking his shots at long range. He freely admitted that, any long range sixgunner does that. How do you like Sandpoint?

My girl friend and I considered moving, but I hate to leave Wy. Have spent almost 40 years in this valley. Suppose I will be buried here.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2009, 03:22:39 AM »

The CMP matches at the club I belong to are shot with iron sighted military rifles. At 200 yards off hand, I would hit a deer every time and I'm not even one of the best shots at that game. The 300 yard targets are shot prone and I would have no problem on a deer sized target at that range either.

I shoot an M1 Garand in 30/06 but the same would apply to those shooting M1As and AR-15s.

weasel · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2009, 06:43:02 AM »

If you can access it, the June 95 American Rifleman had an article on Don Bower, he was rechambering Contenders and shooting @ 500M +. The title of the article was "2" groups@ 1/4 mile". I had to see for myself and ended up buying 3 barrels from him. I was able to shoot several 3" and under groups and one fluke 7/8". Hitting a 12" plate was easy, but he had removed a lot of the variables, we used a benchrest and stock set designed to work with each other, all the pistols were scoped from 7-10X and a spotter walked you into the target.

Back then if you talked such nonsense, you were berated, now it's not such an unrealistic goal. Ladobe here probably has as much knowledge on the subject as anyone.

Default · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2009, 07:30:44 PM »

If my memory still holds true , The last time the interntional long range shooting competition was won with a shooter using iron sights it was a european with a mosin nagant ... Which doesnt surprise me considering what the Finns did to those rifles for their standard infantry men during the Russian/Finnish war ... That 28" barrel doesnt hurt its long range perfomance either i would suspect ..

And yes the 03 is a dandy iron sighted rifle , I'm a bigger fan of the M1 garand myself and that is what i play with for extended ranges with iron sights.

Default

shotgun31 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:44:38 PM »

If you're going to buy a long-range iron sighted rifle, look at a National Match M1A. Then, join a KD club. Shoot that National Match course. 200 yards offhand, 300 standing to sitting, then 20 rounds prone from 600 yards. That match was designed around the Springfield 03.
Shotgun

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 09, 2009, 10:08:44 AM »

If you look at some of those old rifles you will note something they have in common. Fine sights. Often the front sights were tapered to .05" or less. Now you rarely see a sight less than .10" wide as many people with older eyes can't see the finer sights. It's harder to hit a target when your site is twice as wide as the target than when it is 1/2 as wide. At least it is for me. I'm still trying to find someone to mill down the front sight on my RBH. I filed down my last one and hits at 100 yards were much easier. Aim small... hit small.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** June 09, 2009, 10:26:52 AM »

Bill Dixon shot a native American at a few feet under a mile with a Sharps rifle . It was at the Adobe Walls , The Calvery that came after the other Native Americans left were a survey detachment and they mesured the shot and documented it . Elmers shot was witnessed and he admited it was a lucky shot but one he praticed .
I like to shoot long range and can often hit a steel pate at 500 yards on the 2nd shot with a 44mag. or other hand gun , got lucky a couple times and hit it first shot but that was luck .
Sight picture is the key , If you can see the target and can see where your shots are going ( a good spotter is a must while you are learning )you can walk your shots into the target . When you start to hit you can learn your sight picture . Some add sight bars to the front sight others move the rear sight up and down . I like square cut sights for long range .
The ones made by Iron sight gun co. wetre good if they still make them or are still in business.
Clouds play heck when shooting long range with iron sights , you will see ( no pun intended )
A M1-A with NM sight would be a good choice . Or a bolt gun with after market sights .

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2009, 06:12:09 AM »

:DShootall, it is nice to know others have praticed what the old timers knew about shooting. I think on the Dixon shot, there were several Indians clustered together, and he shot at the group. At any rate, a heck of a shot. I think he lived in that area and did quite a bit of shooting over that country. Somewhere in my stuff, I have an article or two about modern shooters using sharps rifles trying to duplicate Billy's shot. While there was some luck, the know it can be done.
I haven't done much long range shooting with my pistols in the last 5 years. I was never up to snuff with the .44's. Killed some game with them, but all less than 100 yards. Had a Bisley by Ruger in .357 that was a real shooter. Had a wonderful trigger, once shot a jack at 180 yards. Like Elmer, it took quite a few shots, but it was a real challange. Elmer lived in wonderful country for long range shooting. Over around Salmon, the hills or Mts. are very steep, and dry in the summer. It is easy to see how he could pratice long distance shooting even by himself because it is so easy to see the bullets hit in the dirt in that country. Keep shooting

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2009, 06:56:52 AM »

Most of the older military designed before WWII had adjustable sights that would go out to 1500 -2000 yards/ meters.
I have used my Garand to shoot at deer 7-800 yards away. I am only guessing on the distance but the emboc clip poped back out after the first round and I had it at my feet I would pull a round out load it and shoot at the 8 deer running across the middle of the farm, then bend down to pick up another round. But the time I would drop the round into the rifle and close the bolt I could see the hit of the previous shot. Ok I was 20 years younger and 65 pounds lighter but it still took a 150 grain bullet that long to cross the space. All rounds missed.
As to other rifles I have had an Enfield No 4 that I have hit gongs out to 500 yards with the Iron sights and the same goes for Mausers
93, 96, and 98's as well as an 1884 Trapdoor Cadet in 45-70. but the gongs were large 3 to 5 feet wide and it took a while off the bench to walk rounds in to hit them. The sights are regulated for period military ammo and small changes in weight or speed have great effects over time and space. 174 grains vs 180 grains is a big deal at 500 yards.
If you are looking for a good cheap rifle then the No 4 Enfields are the ticket. i like the peep sights over the tangent sights of the mausers or Nagants. If there is not a budget concern that it is really hard to beat an M1A national Match, or a Garand in National Match configuration. Even an AR 15 can be shot that far accuratly. But remember that a 1" group at 100 yards will open up more than 10 times out to 1,000 yards. The targets for 1,000 yards are around 4 feet wide for the black. But someone will correct me and tell you exactly how wide. I have not owned a spring field but have played with them a bunch.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:45:16 AM »

My first thoughts on the subject were of a friends model 1873 Springfield...Long barrel & very fine front sight and my first impression was that 400yd shooting with this old original would be easy!

Some manufactures as late as the 1950's (and probably beyond) followed suit as I have a 50's model Savage rimfire that has a very fine, gold front blade on it. There is a trade-off though as the fine sights tend to disappear in the canopy cover of the Squirrel woods!

I remember the review of the Billy Dixon shot as I believe that it was published in Outdoor Life. The group of dedicated Sharps shooters knew that their rifles would reach out that far but the Tech's were doubtful. The testing equipment was high tech as they had a device (from the military) that could see a bullet when fired. There was some shots at first that went well short of the intended range but then the guy running a laptop told a shooter to elevate the muzzle 15degrees and the shot was there!....15degrees was within the adjustable range of the sights.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:04:51 AM »

There is a man who shoots at a range i shoot at . He shot for one of the Army Marksmanship teams , not sure which one . He and a friend shoot 1000 yard with an M1-A . he has ammo loaded for each range they shoot from 100 yard reduced target service rifle to 1000 yard . if i remember they shoot 180 gr. bullets at 1000 yards . I think he said the target was 6 ft. dia. He also said you need a NM rear sight as one click on a standard sight at 1000 yards could put you off the target or in as bad a location on the opposite side of the target . Correct me if i got this wrong as its been a while , the standard sight on a M1-A each click is a 1/4 inch at 100 yards and the NM sight is 1/8 at 100 yards .

84Jim · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2009, 08:26:54 AM »

Iron sights served our forefathers for many years, and they managed to kill stuff. But shooting through a scope is a huge improvement. There is a big advantage to having the target and cross hair in the same focal plane when hunting. And don't confuse the ability to hit a long range target (i.e. big black, stationary bull) with a game animal. First, depending on the size of the rear aperature (assuming you're using a springfield type peep) the field of view is only 18" to 2 feet at 100 yds. Secondly, at least with my aging eyes, you can either get the target, or front sight in focus, not both. For targets, they tell you to focus on the front sight. But say you have a herd of milling deer at 200 yds., and want to pick out the big buck before they dissappear. Good luck.

I try some of my iron sighted guns for deer hunting from time to time. I've shot a couple, but many times could'nt everything lined up and get off a shot. With a scope it would have been no problem.

Springfields are great guns. And what the heck, sometimes the deer deserve a fighting chance!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2009, 10:10:04 AM »

Hey Teddy,
Why not order one of the vaneir rear sights for your Puma. You know like the one that was on the rifle from Quigley down under and dial it up for your 44 mag. I don't think you will have a problem shooting out to 300+ yards with it and 240 or even the 225 grain LE rounds.
With my M29 I have shot out to 200 yards and did not have to hold the front sight too much over the rear to reach that far.

teddy12b · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2009, 10:55:34 AM »

I've always thought those sights looked like they would break off, and they seem like they'd take a lot of work to put on a rifle too. I'd consider one if it was an easy, sturdy, drop in type of fit.

The max distance I would have a shot where I hunt is 150 yards. That also happens to be the max I feel comfortable taking a shot at something too. It's about a 6" drop from 100 yards to 150 yards, so if I keep my laser rangefinder handy I should be ok.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2009, 11:30:37 AM »

There are a couple of different companies that offer the dial up sight. Some are made to fit the Marlin and the Winchester rifles. Not sure how true your Puma is to a 92. But may need a hole drilled in the base of the sight to make the screw holes like up.
Some of the single post sights the will fold up and down are really simple and sturdy.
The more elaberate sights like the one on Quiggley rifle are still pretty robust but don't plan on using the rifle as a base ball bat.
The more elaborite models are graduated and are easier to dial up to different distances.

As far as 150 yards. OK. Shoot where you feel comfortable. I have most of my hunting rifles sighted in to 200 yards and think nothing of an off hand shot on a deer sized critter even with the open sighted models. OK maybe ot the 44 mag as I would have to aim above the animal and I don't like that. But that does not mean I will not try to break clay birds out to 200 yards with it. Heck we do it with handguns and even 22's

teddy12b · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2009, 06:58:24 AM »

My scoped hunting rifle (30-06) I keep zeroed for 200 like you said. I like the limit of the 150 yards with a 44 on deer because it gives me an aiming point of the top of the deers back and I'll be right on. If I got one of those big adjustable sights like you're talking about I'd probably try to put it on a new puma 24" barreled 44mag. I keep my eyes open for another puma 44mag, just because that's a rifle I do anything with and lend to a rookie hunter without too much instruction.

Brithunter · « **Reply #21 on:** September 21, 2009, 09:47:40 AM »

The final stage of the "Queens prize" a competition shot at Bisley Camp evey July is shot at 1200 yards with targer aperture Iron sights and std 7.62x51 ammunition. Everyone uses the same issued ammuntion in this competition and the NRA buy a specially selected batch from the arsenal/makers. It used to be supplied by the MOD but with cutbacks and the abit shooting fervor in the Government this stopped some years ago so the NRA sorces the ammunition itself now it seems..