Barrel length and Max velocity

[TCAS]

How long of a barrel do you need to get maximum velocity from a 209 x45 or  209 x50 barrel.

I know we have many varibles such as Blackpowder, Pyrodex, 777, granular vs pellets, #11, 209, musket caps, etc...but... Would 30 inches be to long for max velocity???

Also posted in TC Rifles

Thanks again

[Triple Se7en]

Velocity increases have been seen in barrels up to 42" in traditional flint/caplock rifles.

Until the day comes when a manufacturer produces or make public any testing with 209 primer inlines that have 40+ inches of barrel throwing a torpedo shaped sabot/bullet with hot charged 777 or Swiss powder,  it'll be just a rough guess.

Manufacturers won't lie still... that's for sure. Extra long barrels will continue to be produced for inlines. We may even see some "odd rifles" in the near future... like inlines with 1-66" twists... 58 caliber/1-28" twist rifles... combo packages involving different barrels..etc. ... anything that may spark bp rifle sales.

[Omega]

How long of a barrel do you need to get maximum velocity from a 209 x45 or  209 x50 barrel.

I don't know. What would you consider max velocity? Last week I chronoed 150 grain Pyrodex Pellet loads in my 28" Omegas at 2298 FPS average MV for 2 - 6shot strings. Dang well smoking in books!
Rich

[RandyWakeman]

Velocity does go up in longer barrels, but it is minimal. Ian McMurchy's tests showed very little difference in velocity or accuracy in his tests comparing 22" barreled guns to 26" barreled guns.

One component not commonly considered is that Pyrodex responds to pressure, and using heavier bullets can cause velocities to RISE slightly.

All with 150 grain pellets by Ian McMurchy, 10 shot avg.:

180 gr. 2194 fps
200 gr. 2198 fps

220 gr. 2083 fps
250 gr. 2045 fps

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If you're wondering if a 30" barrel is actually slowing it down - I doubt it.

If you're wondering if it's worth it to have the 30" barrel or a 26" barrel on the merits of velocity gain - I don't know.

Here's something I wonder:  does the extra length improve accuracy at a given velocity and/or charge?  IOW, say you load a 26" barrel to 2000 fps and a 32" barrel to 2000 fps.  It would likely be a safe guess that the pressure at the moment the bullet leaves the barrel is greater in the shorter barrel.  This is because you need more pressure to get the same bullet up to the same speed in a shorter distance, i.e. greater acceleration.

Once the bullet leaves the bore, all the "wind" following it will still push on the bullet.  How consistant and strong that push is could affect accuracy, no?

So it may be possible that a longer barrel may not gain much in terms of velocity but could gain in accuracy because the exit pressures are lower.

[The Cast Bullet Kid]

:lol: Just a thought but it's worth considering that the intended recipient of the sabot bullet is not likely the detect the benefit of the extra velocity of the long barrel.

[TCAS]

My real goal is to look for a rifle/ caliber/powder/bullet/primer combination that will cleanly harvest deer at the 250 yard range and shoot around a 2 inch group or slightly larger.

My current project rifle is:

Bulberry 24 inch barrel 45 cal
Precision Dead center 195 g
209 and 22 Hornet breach plugs (still testing)
777 fff
777ff (cant find any test with yet)
Pyrodex RS

As soon as I get a good accurate load I will start to chronograph. So far 1 1/2 groups only at 100 yards with 777 fff and no real difference between 209 and Hornet breech but Ive only fired about  50 rounds.

Thanks for the feedback

[WD45]

What type of sight arrangement are you using ?
Open sights ?
scope?
peep ?
1.5 inches @ 100 yards can be normal for open sights with all the factors you throw in with them
Did you try that load at 250 yards ?
Just curious  :-)

[TCAS]

Im using a Burris Ballistic Plex 4.5x14,  Today at the range I found two good combinations at 100 yards:

120g 777fff
195 deadcenter bullet
22 hornet conversion primer
3 shots at just under 1inch


The other load was:
105g 777fff, same bullet and primer-3shots just over 1 inch.

Very strange.....I could not get a 110g 777fff to shoot under 2inches this combo was fired for about 25 rounds over 4 days and never grouped, yet 120g shoots under 1inch ---seems like a very small change but the group size was cut in half.

Plan to shoot next week at 200 meter range and work on 2inch groups at that range.

Other observation: the first shot from a clean barrel grouped with the main group when I used the Hornet conversion.  With the 209 the  first shot did not group with the main group.

Tom C

[stumpy]

I also have a BB 24" .45cal which I have been working on ...much the same items as you are using except I do not have the 22 hornet conversion.  I tried 777 ff from 90 to 120 (10 grn increments) with the PR 195 dead centers cci 209primers  and was never able to stop "flyers" they would be anywhere from 4 - 8 inches this was with both a fouled and clean barrel ...most of the flyers would seem to string horz on target but 4-8" out...I went to 240 dead centers and after some trail and error I determined that  120 grns of 777 and shooting from a "clean barrel" would give me just under 1" consitently. I also noticerd that the sabot has a very interesting look to them its as if they are "twisted" when they exit..they are totally intact but have a look with the peddles bent and turned uniformly.
A question I have for you and I also sent to Fred but have not heard a reply...my breech plug seemd to have "blowback" the primer in still in place and not puntured ( in fact its very hard to remove compared to my TC barrels) but there is signs of blowback both on the head of the breech plug and also the inside area of the breech end cavity...I removed the extractor and have been shooting without it bit don'r think that is the cause ...also I only tighten the breech plug finger tight...any simular indication of this with your barrel

Good luck

[RandyWakeman]

So it may be possible that a longer barrel may not gain much in terms of velocity but could gain in accuracy because the exit pressures are lower.

In a word, no. Barrel rigidity / stiffness / straightness have been found to be large factors-- but not length.

[TCAS]

stumpy,

My 209 breech does not seem to have any difficulty with primer extraction or blow back.  I   removed the extractor infact.  The CCI 209 primers come right out.

The sabots don't look twisted, some lose the petals some don't.

I have yet to find a good load with the 777fff and 209 CCI primer.  I have found a small charge of 90 g Pryrodex and 195 Deadcenter about 1 1/2 inches.

All other loads withe the 209 and 777 have been as large as 6 inches at 100 yards.  The 209 seems to prefer pyrodex based on my limited testing on this barrel.

My best load with 777fff and Hornet is just under an inch if I just exchange the breech to the 209 and use CCI primer, the group jumps to 3-4 inches.

But some loads with Pyrodex actually shot better with the 209 system.

These .45's seem to be fickle, I was dissappointed at first, but know I'm very confident that this barrel just likes it HOT.  More powder please.
I think this Gun will eventually have a load that consistenly shoots 3 shot groups-- 1/2"  at 100 yards  I need a little more range time.

Start with clean barrel and shoot 4-5 209 caps to foul the barrel

Switth to the Hornet conversion

Load and shoot 1 st round, run one wet patch and one dry patch, Load and shoot 2nd round-run one wet and one dry patch.   I can do this sequence for 12-15 rounds before the accuracy starts to suffer and group size exceeds 1 inch

I also use a copper bore brush  to clean my muzzle loaders.  It may not be nesessary but it seems to help.

TCAS