Author Topic: Life without parole for juvenile offeders? (Read 1128 times)

Questor · « **on:** October 05, 2009, 07:09:20 AM »

Heck yes! Even if nobody gets killed. Age does not determine the criminal maturity and savagery of a criminal. There are lots of dangerous 14 year olds out there that need to be off the streets for good.

dukkillr · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:54:32 AM »

YEAH! I AGREE! Steal a pack of gum? Life sentence! Sneak a beer from your parents? Life of hard labor! 8 Year old kid finds dad's gun and accidentally kills his friend? Death penalty!

It's time we got tough on those people not mature enough to comprehend the consequences of their actions. I say this cut off at 14 is ridiculous, we should hang 12 year olds if they show signs of being less than perfect.

It would be absolutely fantastic if we somehow figure out how to eliminate the future for anyone who ever does anything wrong!

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:08:49 AM »

I was seriously referring to the many 14 and 15 year old kids with long rap sheets including multiple armed robberies. Whether they fully understand the consequences of their actions is immaterial to the victims. Most adult criminals don't fully understand the consequences of their actions either.

I got held up at gun and knife point by a couple of drunk 14 year olds once. Fortunately they were caught. At that age they already had a rap sheet indicating they were habitual criminals. They got a slap on the wrist for punishment, and I'm sure they eventually killed somebody.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »

its not their fault its the parents , teachers , church etc they made life too hard for them .

Really it should be determined if they really knew what they were doing ( like the 8 year old ) , did they plan it pre meditate it , was it a reaction to attack ?
is it a way of life for them etc . If it was a planned crime and they knew what they were doing lock um up and throw away the key or shock um .

INresponse · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:21:11 AM »

Wow, it appears dukkillr is jumping off the deep end on that response. Exagerating your response by referring to 8 year olds and 12 year olds pretty much takes away from your not so apparent disapproval of punishing 14 year old to 17 year old violent offenders.

I don't think anyone want to lock up anyone for life for stealing a pack of gum, unless they beat and raped the store clerk before shooting him/her a dozen times in the back of the head while video taping it to share with their friends. I know rehabilitation is common talk when dealing with young offenders, but if you consider some of the violent crimes that high school aged thugs are committing I am sure there are a few crimes that would justify life without parole.

I am whole heartedly in favor of locking up some of these scum bags, and for crimes like rape, robbery and murder it should be nothing less than a death penalty. Perhaps if we actually punish the worst of the criminals some of the wannabees will think twice before acting stupid.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:25:47 AM »

There were teams of kids stealing for this guy in Richmond . He told them if they got caught they would get off because they wetre kids and it was their first arrest . Not long after the stealing some very young were shooting people thinking the same thing . The message we send people like that needs to be strong and clear .

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2009, 11:07:14 AM »

Ther's a few round, just this Am I heard the town next to us the village store had been broken into and a large sum of cash stolen, ten repeat offenders ages 14- 23 were collard and some the money Inexcess of $200,000.00 was reported stolen still missing $180,000, the AK state troopes still canvaseing the town looking for rats.

The core the bad apples have for the last 5 years been implicated in several rape's, robbories, muggin's, and break-in's and vandalizeing homes, telephone office the electric plant and school, the village folks know who they are but cant get anything to stick in a court of law, they are all related and dont lean on the kids in a physical waythe kids have grown to the point that they are plumb ferral.

2 winters back some this core of thugs busted into the new highschool and vandalized it bigtime, the whole village turned out and cleaned it up inclueding the grandparents of them kids, them kids wernt held responseable and have kept on doing what they dont get punished to do.

Two winter's back my oldest daughter came home after school with a blackeye and fat lip said who the boy was and what went on and why, Me firts thing I tried to get ahold the parents (out partying) so called the town cop we wasent even showing up so I hunted him down and showed him my daughter, he said the city wouldent prosuicute the same boy been a problem case and repeate offender when he heard who it was, said they in the past had filed charges but the DA's office wouldent take it up. so why arrest him if the DA isant prosicuteing thats been a ongoing problem in my town of 3400 we have baby criminals with trainingwheels growing up here. seems they dont believe in weeding the garden.
My daughater and I had a conversation with hungover parents the conversation dident go well, they were pointing fingers and looking for somebody to blame, finally I wanted to know who was the leagal guardian of the boy, I said this wont be happening again and looked the ole she cat in the eye when I said it, she snarled back what i was gonna do about it and I replied I dident know right then but when I did do somthing the'd know it.
last winter the boy a chronic trouble maker was at home during a Blizzard and was ruff houseing the house cat and it bit him on the eyeball, since the blizzard drug on for 3 day's the finally medivacked the kid to Anchorage his eye was a dark green and the iris was red they had to remove the eyeball the punk now has a glass eye.
he has been a pretty quiet kid since that incident and havent been any problems with him.

INresponse · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2009, 04:32:16 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 05, 2009, 09:25:47 AM

There were teams of kids stealing for this guy in Richmond . He told them if they got caught they would get off because they wetre kids and it was their first arrest . Not long after the stealing some very young were shooting people thinking the same thing . The message we send people like that needs to be strong and clear .

This is similar to Detroits Young Boys Incorporated.
from Wiki......
Young Boys Incorporated, also known as Y.B.I. was among the first African-American drug cartels that operated on street corners.

They controlled some 75% of the heroin traffic in Detroit, Michigan beginning sometime in 1978 and continuing through the late 1980s. Young Boys Incorporated was formed by a small group of neighborhood friends in 1977. In the beginning, all of the boys were in their late teens. Dwayne Davis (a.k.a. Wonderful Wayne or WW), and Raymond Peoples were two of the founders who became bosses. A few years later Butch Jones (a.k.a. Big Boy) was paroled from prison and joined the organization. It was about this time that Y.B.I. split into three separate crews (WW, Big Boy, and Raymond).

From the start, YBI's main place of operation was the Dexter/Davison neighborhood on Detroit's West Side. It expanded throughout the city's West Side and downtown areas. About two years after its formation, Y.B.I. completely took over the heroin trade in and around the city of Detroit with sales estimated at about $300,000 per day. After the split, WW sent one of his top lieutenants to Boston to expand his operation. About a year after being in Boston, the crew he took to Boston with him, along with new members from Boston, took over most of that city's heroin trade. Sales peaked at about $50,000 per day. The organization in Detroit was seriously crippled in 1982, when in September of that year, it was alleged that Butch Jones ordered the execution of WW because of a turf dispute. WW was gunned down on the corner of Columbus and Lawton Streets on Detroit's West Side. A few months later, on Tuesday, December 7, 1982, Raymond Peoples, Butch Jones and 41 of Y.B.I.'s top Lieutenants were indicted, convicted, and later sentenced to long prison terms. Most people believed that because of WW's death none of his crew were indicted. Shortly after Raymond Peoples was released from prison he was shot to death as he sat in a car on the city's West Side.

The lieutenant that WW sent to Boston came back to Detroit after WW's death and took over what was left of Y.B.I. He operated for about another six years, taking the group to another level until crack cocaine became the drug of choice over heroin. One of his soldiers who came back from Boston with him was Steven Sealy. Sealy is best known for being gunned down and killed as he sat in imfamous drug addict Whitney Houston's Rolls Royce in front of a Boston club. In the car with him was his future brother in law, Bobby Brown. Butch Jones was released after serving 12 years in federal prison, but was eventually indicted again on drug and murder charges. Under US Federal Law, anyone who is convicted of a drug related murder is eligible for the death penalty. Facing such punishment, Jones cooperated with federal authorities for a lesser sentence.

YBI's reputation and system of organization impacted and influenced drug gangs nationally during the 1980s and 1990s. YBI had such an incredibly organized and structured drug ring that after their downfall other African-American Detroit drug cartels copied their strategy. Many gangs rose to prominence such "Best Friends", "Pony Down", "Black Mafia Family" and "The Chambers Brothers", who were featured in a Black Entertainment Television documentary series entitled "American Gangsters".

They were smart enough to know what they were doing was wrong and illegal, but also smart enough to know they could drop out of school, sling dope around the neighborhood and earn more money in a week than their parents did in a year of welfare. These hardened criminals are not confused children acting up and looking for fun. They are scum of the Earth and need to be planted 6 feet deep.

But, to be fare and not quick to judge, we can always use the sink or float method.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2009, 06:21:15 PM »

certainly however it must be based on the crime and the ability of the child to know and understand. there are savage killers on our strets that are very young however there certainly is a big difference of one 15 and say one that is 9 or 10 years old.

GatCat · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:09:05 PM »

Unfortunately, there have always been cases of sociopaths / psychopaths under the age of 18. Someone above used the word "feral" to describe them; that is the word I use. In and out of the criminal justice system from a very early age. By the time they are mid-teens they are hard-core, ruthless criminals. Sooner or later, if they are allowed to run free, they WILL commit a crime that results in either a life sentence, or death penalty ( if over 18 in U.S. ). They are a walking, stalking, time-bomb. They are past the point of rehabilitation ( if such a thing even exists ). Sometimes they come from the best of families, but more often then not, they come from disfunctional, broken homes, often the result of fetal-alcohol ( or fetal-drug ) syndrome...often several generations of which, each generation worse then the previous. Add in the recent glorification of "thug life" in modern culture ( music, video-games, TV, movies, etc) and what you have are dregs on civilized society. As I mentioned above, it is nothing new...look at "Billy the Kid", etc.
Not to bore you, but in a small town I was a cop in, was a kid named "Charlie"; his parents also had two older daughters, who never got into trouble. From an early age, "Charlie" was a chronic problem, vandalizing property, doing arsons, assaulting very young kids, etc. etc. This started when he way maybe 8 or so. Yea, he was given lots of mental health treatment, went through the juvenile system, etc. etc. but nothing worked. Finally he was remanded to adult status for some offense, when he got out of the joint at 20 or so, within a couple of days he stabbed someone for basiclly nothing, and back to the joint he went. No doubt, if/when he is released, he will continue his ways. As a society, should not the good, law-abiding folks be protected from the "feral"? Only way is to simply "remove" those who have overwhelmingly, time-after-time, proven that they are not compatible with civilization. I use "remove" in quotes because in this day and age, unless the perp is killed by a cop or citizen while committing a violant act, the only way we can "remove" is to imprison.
Time to jump off the soapbox!
Mark

rak55 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:24:11 PM »

children are in a development stage and require special circumstances from adult treatment until they reach an age of consent and then after that point which is like 16 they should be allowed to be treated as an adult period.

INresponse · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:31:49 AM »

rak55, I agree and the courts have narrowed that age down about 14 years or 16 years old. I don't know the specific court cases, and I don't feel like looking them up, but those ages are used most often.

Heck, I suggest to people that the minimum age for leaving your good kids home alone, or to babysit a younger sibling, is 12 years old IF they are capable of knowing what to do and how to handle an emergency. Some 10 year olds may be able capable, but many times 14 year olds don't have a clue and are lucky to get both shoes on in the morning.

BBF · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2009, 04:55:08 AM »

Quote from: INresponse on October 06, 2009, 09:31:49 AM

rak55, ..............but many times 14 year olds don't have a clue and are lucky to get both shoes on in the morning.

If that isn't one of the saddest statements I have read here, it comes close. Unless there is a medical/mental reason for this. What are their parents t h i n k i n g !!

Looking around in the rest of this world, kids at that age have many more respobsibilities then just to look after themselves.

jimster · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:41:17 AM »

Back in the really old days teenagers got hung with the older people for serious crimes.
If someone is dangerous, should not matter how old they are, they need to be "removed"
to make everyone else safer. Plant them in the ground for all I care if they are a danger.

Jim

rak55 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:50:48 AM »

jim, would you feel the same way if it were say you that was the danger, or how about the teenager was your grandson who only made 1 mistake then how would you feel ?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2009, 05:58:56 AM »

A responsible parent or grand parent would expect their child to pay for a crime no matter the pain .

ITS CALLED HARD LOVE !

rak55 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:07:17 AM »

that's easy to say til it's your day.

jimster · « **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:09:21 AM »

Rak55....

Dangerous means just that.

If my Grandson, or your Grandson...points a loaded gun at you with intent to do great harm, you best kill him....or you will be dead, and your feelings won't matter one little bit.

People are getting killed by these teenagers these days...we are not talking about grabing a beer out of the fridge here.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:10:05 AM »

No its not easy and only a fool would think so . But you only need look around to see the effect of parents letting their children get by with out disipline and rule following .

Questor · « **Reply #19 on:** October 07, 2009, 06:15:57 AM »

I reject the parental influence argument. If somebody is dangerous enough to commit a crime that would send an adult to death row, it shouldn't matter how young they are.

rak55 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:10:19 AM »

seems fitting

The present government says: it is lawful to tear innocent babies from the wombs of mothers, while God says: I knew you while you were still in the womb. DO YOU AGREE WITH THE GOVERNMENT OR GOD? AND! He also says" You would be better off with a mill stone around your neck at the bottom of the sea, rather than harm a child

what do ya thunk ?

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:30:01 AM »

There is no magic number in age that will determine when someone is to be held responsible for their actions. Of course states have tried to address the problems concerned with age for years. They simply guess at it. I have met 9 year olds in SE ASIA that have been on their own for a few years and operate as well as any so called adult. I have met many 17-18 year old kids in the US that are so immature it is unbelieveable. There just is not a magic age at which one is wise and mature and understands life and death. So the case has to be judged by the individual and his or her comprehension level.

Many of the so called Gangbangers here in the states are 13 or so and have the ability the comprehend their actions and should be certified to stand trial and accept the punishment the same as any adult.

It seems people, myself included, get caught up in how sad it is and imagine all the things that should or could have been different for that person. Yet the fact remains that if they are capable of understanding their actions they should not be given a pass because of their age.

I have a friend whos son now sits in jail awaiting trail for murder. This kid beat a 60 year old crippled man to death and stole his car and some money. He planned to sell the car and take all money to by drugs. He father and I are both hurt that this kid did what he did. It is a tragedy the kid could have been anything he wanted to be, yet, it was his choice to be what he is. The father wants desperately to save his son screaming that the drugs did it and his son was not responsible. I disagree with him openly. Yet, I do understand his pain and I do understand his love, yet, his son must answer for the murder of this old man who could barley walk that lost his life for no reason other than this boy wanted drugs.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #22 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:26:48 AM »

Maybe Obama can appoint a POS czar. The new office could decide on a case by case basis why it's the republicans fault the kids turned out this way and determine how much taxpayer money to give them to work for ACORN.

jimster · « **Reply #23 on:** October 07, 2009, 10:45:36 AM »

"while God says"

God says a lot of things...eye for an eye....."obey the laws"....

I would suppose we could come up with thousands of things God said on both sides.

Bottom line is....anyone dangerous enough to murder people has to be put down or put away to protect the rest. Depends on the laws of the state.

And if I walk into the local gas station/party store at night and a teenager is in there with a gun...It's up to me to deal with that any way I can.
God might not stop the bullet from a teenagers gun from killing the clerk.

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** October 07, 2009, 11:01:02 AM »

I do NOT support life sentences regardless of the crime. There is no reason why a person who is not fit to be a part of society should be a burden to that society for the remainder of their natural life. I say make a reasonable determination of what crimes are such that the person cannot or must not be turned loose in society again and set the penalty for such crimes as death. Make damn sure they are guilty of course but once that is determined beyond all doubt just end their life and be done with them.

If the crime isn't sufficient to justify death then it is not sufficient to justify life in prison at tax payer expense either. Set penalties appropriate to the crime and that will never mean a stiffer sentence for protecting yourself or someone else than the sentence for the person you had to defend against nor for some petty rule violation like the guy with the orchids vs some person robbing, raping or murdering another.

Questor · « **Reply #25 on:** October 07, 2009, 12:05:50 PM »

GB:

Maybe the issue in this case was that the ol' feller was robbing and raping and murdering orchids. Flowers are the sex organs of plants and I can see why, in a world with many kinks, that somebody might be turned on by a perversion for flowers.

That reminds me: It's Wednesday and I always like to pick up some flowers for Mrs. Questor, so I think I'll run by the cemetery to see if there's anything good available for the taking. It's cheaper that way.

Swampman · « **Reply #26 on:** October 07, 2009, 12:26:49 PM »

Ditto what Graybeard said...........Death sentences should be carried out in public with the media present. This would help young offenders understand what happens to those who cross the line. Most sex offenders should dangle at the end of a rope for as long as possible. The death penalty deters crime. There is no repeat offence.

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:38:29 AM »

Gb your right about the waste of taxpayer money housing and feeding those unfit to return to society. Look at the tremendous cost to states like California and certainly others. Now the liberal judges want to release thousands and thousands because of over crowding. Clean out the cells of those animals that will never be released with one well placed bullet to the back of the head. Then the others will be able to watch their color big screens without so much noise.

Thats why all nations had death penalties all societies to eliminate those who would destroy others. Many of the places had banned death sentences in a futile attempt to "REDUCE CRIME" by showing mercy. HUH? Something is wrong with that and time has shown that it has done nothing to reduce crime nor make the criminal see that we are merciful and that will change them somehow.

They are like any dangerous animal or whatever that threatens a town or farm it must be eliminated for the safety of that town.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #28 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:22:52 AM »

Most of them live better in jail than out on the street. I think if you get a life sentence, after a limited amount of appeals, the world has no more use for you.

They said the guy that raped, mutilated and murdered Genine Nicarico is eligible for the death penalty. I can't believe they had to think about it.

We had a young gentleman here that was upset with his 3 year old neice for interrupting him while he listened to music. So he did what anyone would do. He sprayed lighter fluid on her and started her on fire. Another POS we can do without.

I don't know the family or anything, but I have children of my own and I am shaking with rage just typing about this story.

Hodr · « **Reply #29 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:21:05 PM »

If two of my first cousins had been put away early there are three people that would have been alive instead of the victims in a sour home invasion. As it is after the home invasion they wound up in the Oaklahoma State Institute for the Criminally Incompetent. One of them was psychotic from about 8 years old and his younger brother was a complete submissive. They were "rehabilitated" many times in thier youth. During three years I spent in the Army they had 6 felony convictions between the two of them and then got paroled. The State of Oaklahoma will have them until they are in thier mid eighties. Then they have to go back and serve time in Mo. They had every chance from childhood on and if they would have been put away earlier it would have been better all around.

blindhari