Author Topic: 45 colt & 2400 powder (Read 1694 times)

LONGTOM · « **on:** September 23, 2009, 05:34:00 PM »

A while back I had John Gallagher build me a custom Bisley Blackhawk with a 5.5" barrel to my specs and he did a wonderful job.
I have started to play with it some and am having trouble getting it sighted in.
My load is not as hot as what he used to test it before he sent it to me.
I load a 255gr hard cast SWC over 12.5gr of HS6 which should have me about 800fps, a very pleasant load.
The problem is it prints about 5" high at 25yds and about 2" to 3" left.
This is with the rear sight screwed all the way down and slid all the way to the right.

What he was loading was a Hornaday 250xtp over 21.5gr of 2400 powder at around 1300 to 1350fps and that the sights were set for that load.

None of my manuals even list a load that high with 2400, 21gr max.

I really don't think I want a load that hot for everyday shooting.
Maybe around 1000 to 1100fps wouldn't be to bad, tops.

The sights are a Bowen adj. rear and a S&W style ramp with a red insert front that measures .250".
Would a .300 make enought difference to lower the POI for the load I am currently useing, or would I still have to step my load up some?

I know no one knows for sure, you just have to switch the front sight and give it a try.
I was just asking to try and determine what I need before I order something that won't work.

Thanks for any help you can give.

LONGTOM

gypsyman · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2009, 07:55:53 PM »

Longtom, I think you should try .350 to .400. I don't think that extra .05 is going to give you enough. And you said you already had the rear sight is screwed all the way down. Not sure if anyone makes a taller front sight with an insert. What we use to do for our silhouette pistols, is get an extra tall front sight, say .500, bring the rear sight up about 6-8 clicks off bottom, and start filing off the front sight till we got on target. At least you had a few clicks to play with on the rear. But, this would only work if you had a front sight that didn't have an insert, and was basically a patridge design with a back cut. Good Luck!! gypsyman

securitysix · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2009, 08:59:47 PM »

Instead of buying a new front sight, you might consider trying a lighter bullet for practice. You can push a lighter bullet to higher velocities and still get less recoil (less recoil seems to be the idea behind the practice load, unless I miss my guess).

I actually loaded some 230 grain LRN bullets (designed for the .45 ACP) pushed by 8.5 grains of Unique (also tried 8.5 grains of HP-38, and my notes say I liked it) that shot pretty soft and fairly close to where my 250 grain JHP loads go. The 230s I used had a little bit of a shoulder to them (you'd seat that shoulder pretty much even with the case mouth in .45 ACP). I seated them just deep enough into my .45 Colt cases to do a light-medium roll crimp over that shoulder. They looked pretty authentic.

You might even try the same weight bullet you're using with some 2400, but not the 21.5 grains he was using. My loading notes say I tried both a 260 grain Speer and a 250 grain Hornady with 17 grains of 2400. My note for that load is "Tame enough", which means it can't be too bad, especially since my normal hot load consists of a pretty stiff charge of Lil'Gun with the same 250 grain Hornady XTP.

Regardless, before you pop money for a new sight, you might play around with your load some to see if you can find something that shoots a little closer to where the sights are set. Then again, you might not. It's your gun and your money.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2009, 03:31:56 AM »

I have been thinking about useing some Winchester 230gr RNJHPs that I have put a cannelure on for crimping along with a load of about 13.5gr HS6 as a starting point.

The front sight is tall enought now, really wasn't wanting to go any higher.
Just wasn't thinking about a lighter bullet to bring it down.

LONGTOM

BCB · « **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2009, 08:10:57 AM »

I have shoot 21 grains of 2400 with the 45-270-SAA cast boolit. Tha slug weighs in at 283 grains, BUT, it is cast and may accept a bit more powder charge than a jacketed bullet...

I think something else is wrong if you are out of sight adjustment. My Blackhawk just has the factory adjustable sights and there is nothing that I shoot that I can't get on target with the adjustment limits of the factory sights. That includes light loads, heavy loads, cast, jacketed etc...

Something just doesn't seem right with the sight system on your handgun...

BCB

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** September 24, 2009, 10:50:53 AM »

Maybe it's jist me BUT iffen I were gonna spend that kinda money on a custom gun build to my own specs those specs would have included the load I wanted to shoot in that gun and having it tuned to perform with that load.

No way would I have told the man how I wanted the gun to look and left it to him to decide what load I should use in it.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #6 on:** September 24, 2009, 11:10:03 AM »

LongTom,
Why don't you jack up that load of HS-6. With that revolver, which is at least as strong as a Blackhawk or stronger, you should be able to load upward by a grain or two. I typically load my Blackhawk with a grain or so more than you do and it's only about 1050 to 1100 fps with a 255 SWC or RNFP. It's not that hot of a load, at least not any worse than a .44 mag factory load.

Check John Linebaugh's site for some info on the 45 Colt and loading for it.
LINK: http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Check the bottom of the page, a nice load for everyday shooting is in there. He's also got some 2400 data posted as well.

On a second thought, you might have to just load lighter bullets. Generally, lighter bullets shoot lower than heavier ones. I don't know if you'll get a whole 5 inches out of it though.
...just guessing here.

I think that Greybeard's comments are right on target but what can you do now??? Can you send it back for adjustments???

BCB · « **Reply #7 on:** September 24, 2009, 11:34:01 AM »

The point to my post was that I don't think that no matter what load is shot through that handgun, he will not be able to get the 5" high and the 2"-3" windage solved since that is the best he can do since he is out of adjustment on the sights...

Something is out of line with the sighting system...Just my thoughts...

The handgun may need sent back and a request made to make it shoot closer to point of aim NO MATTER WHAT LOAD IS FIRED THROUGH IT--PERIOD.

BCB

Autorim · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2009, 03:21:28 PM »

I would send the gun back for a proper front sight to allow the gun to shoot to point of aim with nearly any load. I sent mine to Alan Harton. He made and installed a patridge sight and I can adjust it to POA with 5.0 grains of TB or 20.0 grains of 4227 - 200 to 270 grain bullets. If a gun won't shoot well and where I want it to shoot, I won't keep it. I recently sent one back to S&W for that reason alone.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2009, 04:23:16 PM »

Sorry guys, I was away this evening at my youngest sons football game.
They won 22-8!

Anyway, I did state the loads I wanted to use and they were from about 850 to about 1050 or a tad more but not 1350fps.
I chose the sights but he chose the height.
I knew that my plinking load would be off some but didn't think it would be that much as far as height.
Not sure what is going on with the windage.
Maybe it's the way I am holding it that is causing the left of POA.

I contacted him about the problem and he said I needed a hotter load but he would send me a taller front sight.
Never got one!
Tried to contact him a couple of times but got no answere.

As far as sending it back, if it is something I'm doing wrong or just the load I hate to pay another $69.00 for nothing.
I thought I would try a few things first and if that didn't work then I would have to.

I am not afraid of recoil so if I have to step it up that much then I will, just not what I was really after.

Like I said, I will try a lighter bullet and or a stiffer load and see how close I can get height wise.
Work on one thing at a time.
Next I will address the windage problem.

I may load a few rounds near his veloicity and see where they print just to see if indeed he was telling me right.

Today I did notice that the front sight has a very slight wiggle to it.
The slot apeers to be a tad wider than the sight itself.
I guess that could account for some of the windage problem.
Not sure it would make up that much though.
The only thing I don't know is at what distance he sighted it in at.
I did try a few rounds at 7yds and they were very close to POA.
Great for close up protection but again, not what I was after.

I will beat this, just may take some time.

Thanks for all the advice and please feel free to suggest any and all you know.

LONGTOM

Blackhawker · « **Reply #10 on:** September 25, 2009, 03:42:46 AM »

Quote from: BCB on September 24, 2009, 11:34:01 AM

The point to my post was that I don't think that no matter what load is shot through that handgun, he will not be able to get the 5" high and the 2"-3" windage solved since that is the best he can do since he is out of adjustment on the sights...

Something is out of line with the sighting system...Just my thoughts...

The handgun may need sent back and a request made to make it shoot closer to point of aim NO MATTER WHAT LOAD IS FIRED THROUGH IT--PERIOD.

BCB

I agree, even a fixed sight single action shouldn't be off that much. You're right.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2009, 03:51:43 AM »

Quote from: LONGTOM on September 24, 2009, 04:23:16 PM

Sorry guys, I was away this evening at my youngest sons football game.
They won 22-8!

Anyway, I did state the loads I wanted to use and they were from about 850 to about 1050 or a tad more but not 1350fps.
I chose the sights but he chose the height.
I knew that my plinking load would be off some but didn't think it would be that much as far as height.
Not sure what is going on with the windage.
Maybe it's the way I am holding it that is causing the left of POA.

I contacted him about the problem and he said I needed a hotter load but he would send me a taller front sight.
Never got one!
Tried to contact him a couple of times but got no answere.

As far as sending it back, if it is something I'm doing wrong or just the load I hate to pay another $69.00 for nothing.
I thought I would try a few things first and if that didn't work then I would have to.

I am not afraid of recoil so if I have to step it up that much then I will, just not what I was really after.

Like I said, I will try a lighter bullet and or a stiffer load and see how close I can get height wise.
Work on one thing at a time.
Next I will address the windage problem.

I may load a few rounds near his veloicity and see where they print just to see if indeed he was telling me right.

Today I did notice that the front sight has a very slight wiggle to it.
The slot apeers to be a tad wider than the sight itself.
I guess that could account for some of the windage problem.
Not sure it would make up that much though.
The only thing I don't know is at what distance he sighted it in at.
I did try a few rounds at 7yds and they were very close to POA.
Great for close up protection but again, not what I was after.

I will beat this, just may take some time.

Thanks for all the advice and please feel free to suggest any and all you know.

LONGTOM

LongTom,
I wouldn't think it's the way your shooting. You seem to be an experienced shooter and when you think about it, just about anyone should be able to shoot a sixgun right off with somewhat decent accuracy. The fact that you're grouping in one place or another shows that you know how to shoot it. I definitely think there is something wrong with the sights. It's a shame that for the price one pays for a sixgun like yours that you're getting the runaround. Rest assured, it should shoot well. I haven't found a standard Ruger Blackhawk that I can't shoot fairly well with out to 100 yards, there is definitely NO reason that a custom revolver like yours shouldn't do the same.

Good luck, I hope you can work it out. Now that I think about it more, I'd work more with the maker rather than the load.

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2009, 03:51:44 PM »

Quote

I know no one knows for sure, you just have to switch the front sight and give it a try.

Actually anyone who can do simple math can know for sure. Raising the front sight 0.05" will raise the POI by ~6.4" at 25 yards. If you want extra adjustment, then a 0.1" increase will be plenty. The wide variation in the velocities of your loads will challenge any sighting system, particularly one in a light, short-barreled revolver.

After not shooting my 4-5/8" BH for about two years I took it out of the safe, loaded up its favorite recipe and headed to the range. Lo and behold, it was shooting 3" left at 15 yards. How could that be? I moved the windage adjustment but now the blade was in danger of falling out. I finally changed my grip pressure and hand placement and had to move the sights back to the original position again. I had forgotten how to hold that darn plow handle!

.

JustaShooter · « **Reply #13 on:** September 25, 2009, 04:24:48 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star on September 25, 2009, 03:51:44 PM

Quote
I know no one knows for sure, you just have to switch the front sight and give it a try.

Actually anyone who can do simple math can know for sure.

If you have the sight radius, sure. For those wondering how, the formula is Distance to target in inches divided by sight radius in inches times change in front sight height in inches equals change in POI at target in inches.

Quote

Raising the front sight 0.05" will raise the POI by ~6.4" at 25 yards.

I think you meant to say raising the front sight lowers POI. BTW, I get ~6.2", but I'm guessing that the sight radius is 7.25", looks like you used 7" - not that it makes enough difference to matter.

Just a Shooter

Lone Star · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2009, 02:45:39 PM »

Quote

I think you meant to say raising the front sight lowers POI....

Busted.

As you demonstrated, a small difference in the sight radius makes no difference to the OP's revolver's POI. As his revolver uses a custom rear sight, only the OP knows the actual measurement.

Doesn't anyone take algebra in school any more?

.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #15 on:** September 29, 2009, 07:41:39 AM »

Ya mean I shoulda studied my algebra in school?

I never thought I would have a use for it.

DP

rawhidekid · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2009, 10:08:35 PM »

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but in his picture the rear sight is all the way up, not down!

If someone built me a handgun & I had problems sighting shouldn't he be the one to fix it?

LONGTOM · « **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:46:04 PM »

rawhidekid:

I assure you the sight is all the way down.
This is a Bowen classic sight and seems to sit a little off the frame but the sight is screwed down tight.

This is all the way down.

This is all the way up.

Note the distance between the bottom of the sight and the top of the hammer and the piece just ahead of the windage adjustment screw on top.

Better yet, just look at the windage adjustment screw and you will see that it is all the way down.

LONGTOM

rawhidekid · « **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2009, 07:59:56 PM »

Ok, I now see what you have, but there sure doesn't seem like much movement comared to mine. Sorry cant show pics as no digital camera, although one is on order.

But if you are not satisfied shouldn't you return it for warranty repair to the customiser?

LONGTOM · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:33:01 AM »

rawhidekid:

No problem!

Like I sad in one of my earlier replys, I did try to contact the gunsmith who built it for me with no answere on several occasions.
The very first contact with him was that I needed a taller front sight after I emailed him with the height of the one that is on the gun.
He said he would send me one for free.
Never came and he has not responded to any of my atempts to contact him since.
I guess I will just buy my own from BROWNELLS.
It will be cheaper that the $69.00 it costs to ship it back to him and very little wait time.
That is what I think I will do right now.

LONGTOM

LONGTOM · « **Reply #20 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:23:00 AM »

Well, interesting news!

BROWNELLS couldn't help me.
They said they have nothing that would work with my base syatem other that starting from a blank and makeing my own.

There is a ray of hope!!!

While looking on the internet I ran accross a company called WEIGAND COMBAT HANDGUNS INC. in Mountaintop PA.
It turns out that the sight system the gunsmith used on my gun was made by them.
I called and now have on the way a couple of taller insert blades to try.
Cost is $14.95 each.
One is a .300 tall and the other is a .350 tall.
The one on the gun now is .250 tall.
Hopefully one of these will correct my height problem.
Still not sure what to do about the windage.
Lets just tackle one item at a time.
Will keep you posted on the out come.

LONGTOM

rawhidekid · « **Reply #21 on:** October 08, 2009, 11:40:52 AM »

I wish you luck, the shooting left, if it continues will probly require the barrel to be tightened. I had a Taurus that was shooting left and a gunsmith friend tightened the barrel; that fixed it. I have had some Rugers that would shoot light loads slightly left and stout loads right on, this may als be your case. Try a couple stronger loads to see which is the case. Might save some cost and agravation.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #22 on:** October 08, 2009, 11:49:03 AM »

I just measured the front sight on my Bisley 5.5 inch SS in .45 Colt. It is .450 above the base. Hope this helps, don't know why I didn't think to do it right off.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #23 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:29:24 PM »

rawhidekid:

I too figure I will have to have the barrel turned in just a touch.
I hope the new blade inserts are enought and also that they don't look overly tall.
That would ruin the overall look of the gun, but if that is what it takes then so be it.
After all, it's going to be a using gun, not a safe queen.
I have plenty of those.

LONGTOM