Author Topic: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa  (Read 17499 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« on: August 26, 2004, 05:00:06 AM »
These are two of my all time favorite cartridges in Africa for plains game hunting. I have had about a dozen hunters give or take using these rifles. The debate has been a long one over which is better and for many who shoot one of them, the decision between the two was a tough one.

The memory of the 35 Whelen in the bush is very fresh for me because this year I had a hunter with one.  He took about a dozen animals up to Eland in size. He did lose one animal, a warthog which we might have been able to find but it did make it to a neighbors property and we were not allowd to access it to locate the wounded pig. In retrospect I should have just gone in and found it without asking. Unfortunately I did the right thing after realizing I was off our consession I wanted to be able to get the truck in close to the area so I drove the 15 miles around to the owners home only to find a nervous caretaker who would not allow us entry.

The fellow who used the 35 whelen loaded up Speer grandslam bullets in the 250 grain weight. Although the cartridge was very good, the bullets were not as impressive. I think a softer bullet would be a better match to this rifle. Also as you might know I'm very partial to bonded core bullets, and if you gun shoots them well the X bullet.

The 35 Whelen and the 338/06 have moderate velocity which makes them nearly perfect bush rifles.  There is a custom rifle company in RSA making what is one of the more popular bush rifles for general bag plains game hunting. It's called the 338 Sabi Sabi named after the famous game reserve. It's a near exact duplicate to the 338/06 but the shoulder is just a bit different.  These two cartridges, the 338 and 35 have about a 250 yards range giving them about a 100 yard cushion for the average shot distance.  Most shots in the bush will be in the 50-150 yard range.  They would both be on the slow side for the Eastern cape and Namibia where the habitat is much more open and the shots much longer on average.

Both are very safe to use with about any bullet made. Most experienced hunters know that a Nosler ballistic tip bullet from a magnum rifle shot at close range is a bomb and will usually explode on or just inside the animal.  However the Ballistic tip is a fine choice with the reduced velocity of these two cartridges.  The 210 Nosler partition in the 338 caliber is a fantastic performer.  The 35 Whelen can also be loaded with a number of explosive handgun bullets in .38 caliber and even in 9mm size!  Talk about a handloaders dream to tinker with!

So which is better?  Hmmm I have just slightly more experience with the 338/06 as a friend has one that I just love. The first day I shot it at a 300 yard target. It was a 12" square 1" thick steel plate screwed to a tree. By putting the crosshiars on the top edge of that plate the bullets found their way to the center on about a dozen shots or so.  It never missed. The recoil was easy and the gun very light and short. If I did not already have the 30/06 I would have been having  a 338/06 built!

The 338 has a bit better bullet selection and shoots a llittle bit flatter. The 35 Whelen definately hits with a greater thump which can be heard when game is hit, even when at a great distance away. The 35 Whelen really provides a nice blood trail, and with the available bullets generally gives a very good exit wound.  They are both well suited for use on every plains animal up to and including Eland. They fall short for the legal description on the big five but can both be used for leopard in most countries.

The animals I feel they have to pass on are actually very few, Hippo, rhino, elephant are just to big. Buffalo and giraffe are possible but not a good idea in my opinion.  Even Eland bulls at 2000 pounds are a tall order but I have never seen an Eland survive a hit from either one and we have never lost one. With that said I think a well placed shot from either will get the job done just fine. Eland are about 20-30% bigger then Cape Buffalo on average. That would make you think they would also work for Buffalo. Well,............ not exactly. Eland are softer and with no additude to consider. The difference is not the size but the vengence and the thought process of the buffalo.  Buffalo also have the strong urge or desire to protect the others in the herd. The danger does not always come from the one you shoot and can see but from the others hiding in the bush to get even with you. If a heard of buffalo will charge a pride of lions who have taken down a cow, they darn sure will charge the much slower and less dangerous humans who have done the same thing.

Using a gun that will drop a bull quickly will scatter the herd and before they can regroup the one you have shot is down out of their sight.  If it can run with the group and begin the drag behind they will tend to be protective of it when you bump into them while following up the spoor.

So which would I choose? Don't go there........ that decision makes me crazy. I like them both so equal that I could not choose between them.  for that reason I don't own either one. I have a 375HH which surpasses them both and is legal for all game. However the 375HH is a bigger gun with more recoil and far less functional in the USA for every day big game hunting. The 338/06 and the 35 Whelen are not just good plains game guns but good big game guns period! Few cartridges can be considered equal and fewer still better for big game in North America. Only a  few areas where very long shots are used would provide limitations for either one. As I said earlier the 338 I was shooting was deadly accurate to 300 yards and I would not take shots longer then that lightly with any rifle.

The biggest consideration for bringing either of these out of the country is ammo. You will not likely ever find ammo for them outside your loading bench! The next consideration is headstamp. You must buy and use properly headstamped brass when travelling outside the USA. That is not a "fact " for every country but a good rule of thumb. Some countries will not care or even check. However if you're stopped and checked it makes life a whole lot easier when everything is properly matching. Trust me on this, I've been there with hunters bringing wildcats in the past. The paperwork and possible difficulty with non-matching ammo is not worth the hassle.

If you own one of these fine cartridges you have one of the best over all big game rifles man has ever known. They have limits on only the very biggest game and at the longest distances. For the normally hunted big game of the world, within "hunting" distances they are both just right!
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Offline 5Redman8

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???
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2004, 06:20:07 AM »
Elands are bigger than Bufs on average???

I would have never guessed that....but I never have seen a buf in person.

Great read....I would love to have either cartridge.

Kyle

Offline Graybeard

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2004, 06:27:58 AM »
While I've never owned either of those two, like you I like the idea of both and would have a hard time chosing. Still I really do like .35s in general. But have yet another similar caliber to toss out for consideration. First let me ask, what is the legal description on the big five? Cape buffalo is really the only one of them I'd have any interest in if I ever make it to Africa.

The caliber I'm speaking of is of course the 9,3. Here we have three different choices for use in bolt rifles and one other for doubles for those well heeled enough to have a double rifle. The 9,3x62 is bascially the same case as the Whelan but the shoulder is moved forward a wee bit and the wall are less tapered for a bit more case capacity and the bullet diamer on all 9,3s is .366". Just .009" less than on the .375 H&H. It moves 286 grain Nosler PTs or solids about the same velocity that the Whelan does 250s. Sako has recently annouced a 9,3x66 which as best as I can determine is a longer version of the above round but adds another 150-200 fps to the velocity. On top is the 9,3x64 Brenneke. It uses a fatter case almost the same size as the H&H at the head and with very little taper. It pushes the 286 grain bullets faster than the .375 H&H does the 300s by almost 100 fps. Even with the rare 300 grain solid for this one it fully matches the velocity of the old H&H and has only .009" less diameter and with the standard 286 grain at more velocity has only 14 grains less bullet weight.

These rounds especially the 9,3x62 are or at least once were quite popular among African locals for use on all game up to and including elephant. Can't speak to the availability of ammo over there now. But properly marked cases are readily available so that hurdle isn't a problem.

I really do have a strong desire to own one of these three rounds. I have no need for it here in the US for what I actually hunt. Some day if I'm able to hunt elk and I think I will it would go with me. If I ever come to Africa which again I really hope I can it would be my primary gun of choice.

So it is legal in your area of SA up to and including Cape Buffalo? If not, I assume it would be for all plains game.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Robert

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Yup 9,3x62 is a goodie...
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2004, 06:44:22 AM »
In Paco Kelly's article about the 35 Whelen, he talks about the 9,3 and his fondness for it while in Africa.  On the other hand...Remington now offers headstamped brass for the Whelen...so that would solve the entry problem.  I would imagine 338-06 stamped brass could be special ordered.  Does anyone know what case the 9,3 is built on?  Is it also 30-06 like the Whelen and 338-06?
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Offline 5Redman8

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2004, 07:05:47 AM »
There is proper headstamped brass fpr both and factory loadings for both....here is the 338-06 brass at midway and 35 Whelen...

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabrowse/2/9131/9315***652***670***9013***

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabrowse/2/7394/9315***652***670***9013***

Should be no problem with headstamp issues.

Kyle

Also factory ammo for both....

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabrowse/6/9794/653***690***

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabrowse/6/9354/653***690***

Offline Mac11700

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2004, 08:23:49 AM »
JJHACK:

Which of the two do you think would give the most versatility for us states bound hunters...and knowing that if  the big bears might be on the menu..would that influence one way or the other?

Mac
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Offline Graybeard

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2004, 11:02:08 AM »
A-Square legitimized the .338-06 and offers properly handstamped ammo and cases.

The 9,3x62 is same case as the .30-06. I've heard the 9,3x66 Sako is also. The 9,3x64 Brenneke is a unique case used by no other round I'm aware of. It is larger in head diameter than the .284 Win. by a good bit and only barely less so than the belted magnums. It is a quite large case with ballistics slightly superior to the old .375 H&H using a bullet only .009" smaller in diameter.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Robert

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Thanks G.B.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2004, 03:14:35 PM »
I might have to check one out.
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Offline JJHACK

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2004, 03:28:57 PM »
Mac, if big bears were the primary concern the bigger bullets the better. You will only have trouble at close range, and from that point velocity is not the issue. Bone crunching bullet weight is more important. So if that was the main concern the bigger 35 Whelen might be the better choice. Also the bigger diameter holes nearly always provide better blood trails.

After reading the replies and giving this a bit of thought I might say (at least in my opinion) that if I wanted to stay under 250 yards the 35 Whelen might be my choice and if I wanted a rifle to get to 300 or just a bit more the 338/06 might get the nod. Just too hard to decide because each one has a slight advantage over the other in differnt ways. The 338/06 can load a lot of very good bullets from 200 to 300 grains although a 250 grain bullet is probably the practical limit with the available case capacity. With the 35 Whelen the 250 grain bullet might also be the functional limit.  However the additional diameter of the 35 Whelen is a real benifit in killing power, although it's a poor quality for flat shooting.

What do you think?
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Offline 5Redman8

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"
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2004, 03:40:38 PM »
If it were me, I would go 338-06 only because of the selection of bullets.  Also I enjoy open range hunting, so the flatter trajectory would help a little.  

The bullet selection for 338 is GREAT!!!!!

Kyle

Offline Mac11700

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2004, 04:46:04 PM »
JJHACK:

Quote
What do you think?


I am inclined to agree with you..bowing to experiance...I haven't taken anything larger than whitetails so I always try to ask pertinent questions whenever I have a need to know,or my curiosity is tickeled....Given that...being able to practice a-lot in all the different field positions with reduced loads for the same riifle you would be carrying, seems very logical to me...and also from an economical veiwpoint,you can get in a-lot more practice dollar for dollar,and extra practice makes you more compitent in your ability to hit what your shooting at,especially if you've practiced a-lot of off hand shooting....

Mac
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Offline leverfan

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35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2004, 08:43:11 PM »
This is a great thread.  When the barrel on my .30-06 model 70 begins to show serious signs of wear, I intend to replace it with either a .338-06 or a .35 Whelen.  I've been leaning towards the Whelen, but factory brass is available for both, as of this writing, so the headstamp question isn't too big of a deal.  One could simply lay in properly stamped brass, just in case an overseas hunting opportunity cropped up, and do all of your stateside shooting with reformed .30-06 brass.
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Offline art2africa

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Me, too
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2004, 04:29:07 AM »
If I didn't already have a 300 Win Mag, I'd get a 338 too.

Offline Roger Beach

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 06:12:01 PM »
I just checked www.realguns.com's ballistic calculator and here are the results.

Loaded to 2500 fps using a 250 Nosler Partition in both 338-06 and 35 Whelen the figures below are velocity, energy, and trajectory at 100 and 300 yards using a 200 yard zero.

338-06   100 yds, velocity 2324, energy 2997, trajectory +2.5", 300 yds, velocity 1994, energy 2207, trajectory -10"
35 Whelen 100 yds, velocity 2313, energy 2969, trajectory +2.5", 300 yards, velocity 1965, energy 2124, trajectory -10.2"

They look like two peas in a pod to me, except for the Whelen's advantage of a larger diameter bullet.

As to bullet selection, check if out at www.realguns.com. They both have a wide selection of bullets.

Roger

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 11:19:01 AM »
They look like two peas in a pod to me, except for the Whelen's advantage of a larger diameter bullet.

Now, I own one of each...  8)  and with respect to the 2 peas in a pod, I'm here to tell you it just ain't so!  And the bullet diameter is the reason why!

Let me make an analogy here...  we'll round off the calibers to 2 figures instead of 3 because the higher math has always confused me.   :-\

We're talking 33 vs 35 calaber.  .020 of an inch difference.  "Not enough to mean anything" you say.  But consider the .243 vs the Roberts or the 25/06.   :)  there the difference, in round numbers again, is only .010!!!  :o  And anyone who has ever pulled a trigger knows that the .243 is a marginal deer caliber whle the 25's are just about perfect for that purpose!

 ;) ;D   <hee hee  ;D  it's good to be a troll...>
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Offline WL44

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 09:58:16 PM »
I enjoyed this thread and it's interesting to see JJ's view very much in agreement with that of Gregor Woods who has a wealth of experience in Africa and who wrote "Rifles for Africa" (a great and entertaining read for any hunter by the way).

I didn't see Graybeard's question answered, ideally JJ would have all of the details, so hopefully he will chime in.

The 9.3 is legal for DG in certain jurisdictions. Certainly I understand it is in Zim. In South Africa the old provincial ordnances differed from what I could gather so some places it was 9.3 others 375 - I'd think this has been sorted out, but don't know and I can't confirm which way it went.

It was the difference in certain African countries that pushed me to the 375 and away from the 9.3. It really depends on where you see yourself hunting that buffalo. Most South Africans hunt their buffalo elsewhere in Southern Africa.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2009, 03:26:11 AM »
  When i was going to build myself a much needed "brown bear rifle", i bought a Ruger 77 in 350 Rem. Mag., (which has the same balistics as the Whelen) and also had P.O. Ackley rebore a Ruger 77, 30-06 that i already owned, to .338-06...  My test was a "bullet test box" to test bullets and also a LOT of hunting with both.  I'd get the folks i hunted with to use one rifle, while i used the other to shoot numerous moose and caribou with both guns using different bullets.

  In the end, i chose the .338-06, as it just plain did a better job, with deeper penetration and very good bullet expansion, which is what i've found to be the key to quick clean kills.

  I still think i made the better choise, and it's still what i'd build today, as my .338-06 is now tried and true, working perfectly following up wounded big bears, and making many many one shot kills on all kinds of big game.

  The 35's may be a tiny bit bigger, but for me, the .338 bullets made up for that very well...

  DM

Offline Roger Beach

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 10:57:12 AM »
 Hello AtilLaw.

Please note the context of my remarks, which were limited to the exterior ballistic performance of the two rounds when loaded to the same muzzle velocity. My “2 peas in a pod” referred only to that performance. As you can see they are very close if not identical, from a pragmatic point of view.

My comments was to address the remarks by 5Redman8:

“If it were me, I would go 338-06 only because of the selection of bullets.  Also I enjoy open range hunting, so the flatter trajectory would help a little.”  

“The flatter trajectory?” What flatter trajectory? The .2” advantage of the 338-06 at 300 yards is a country mile from being a useable difference.

I also responded to these remarks by saying, “As to bullet selection, check if out at www.realguns.com. They both have a wide selection of bullets.” 

I would add, they both have enough bullet selection to keep the most adventuresome experimenters among us busy for a very long time if one tried all of them for both rounds.

Both of 5Redman8”’s comments are myths from another time.

I did not address the terminal performance of these rounds but did note the Whelen’s advantage in bullet diameter, which in my mind partially addresses terminal performance, and in a positive way. 

I did not claim, nor provide enough evidence to claim,"Not enough to mean anything" as you inferred from my remarks.

Drilling Man has subsequently come down on the side of the 338-06 claiming bullet performance to be the difference. I have my doubts about that, not to demean his experience.

Finn Aagaard reported on the experience of his pal Joe Phillips of Anchorage using the Whelen on brown bears with a 250 grain Speer Spire Point and says Joe always got “more than adequate penetration.” That Speer is a relatively soft Hot Core bullet.

Phil Shoemaker mentioned Finn’s own performance with the Whelen reporting Finn anchored a wounded brown bear with it after another hunters poorly place shot allowed the bear to attempt escape. I asked Phil and as he recalled Finn was using a 250 grain Nosler Partition.

Nor do the two anecdotal comments above prove a great advantage for the Whelen. I will say my next rifle build will be a Whelen influenced in part by exactly the advantage you mention, bullet diameter. I will gain that without giving up velocity, energy, or trajectory to the 338-06. At least that is true if I use 250 grain Nosler Partition bullets.

Actually my decision has more to do with hunting with a historic former wildcat used by the likes of Elmer Keith, Finn Aagaard, Phil Shoemaker (who has said the Whelen performs every bit as well as the 338WM in his experience) and Townsend Whelen.

Aagaard and Shoemaker claim the 98 Mauser is thee action for hunting rifle and my will be on a newly acquired left hand version.

Thanks for responding.   

Roger

Offline Roger Beach

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2009, 11:00:29 AM »
Opps. Sorry for the spelling. Time was short and I did not proof my post.

Roger

Offline Davey G

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2009, 05:26:14 AM »
New guy here.  I am currently building a .35 Whelen on a Turk Mauser action.  I am excited about the caliber as it gives me the capacity to launch the heavy bullets.  There are ample 250gr offerings, and the interesting 225gr Partitions and Accubonds as well.  Nosler's website shows a load for the 225gr Partition or Accubond doing 2789 fps.  That's a stout load for a 225gr bullet!  There are also A-Squares as heavy as 275gr and Woodleighs as heavy as 310gr, but I've seen no load data or ballistics on either.

Your thoughts?

Offline lgm270

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2009, 11:24:31 AM »
New guy here.  I am currently building a .35 Whelen on a Turk Mauser action.  I am excited about the caliber as it gives me the capacity to launch the heavy bullets.  There are ample 250gr offerings, and the interesting 225gr Partitions and Accubonds as well.  Nosler's website shows a load for the 225gr Partition or Accubond doing 2789 fps.  That's a stout load for a 225gr bullet!  There are also A-Squares as heavy as 275gr and Woodleighs as heavy as 310gr, but I've seen no load data or ballistics on either.

Your thoughts?

Don't forget to keep us posted on this project. Best of luck with it.

Offline Tonk

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Re: 35 Whelen & 338-06 in Africa
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 12:42:01 PM »
Dah! Where did he go boys?  :o  ???  :P  :P  :P