Ringing the chamber.......................

[Gunny]

Marsh,

There has been a lot of talk about this. I have seen a very nice Trapdoor that had a rung chamber, makes you want to cry. I am going to stick my neck waaaaay out here and say this--IMO I do not believe that it is possible to ring a chamber with black powder. Boy that ought to stir folks up some. Now I'm not saying that you can't ring a chamber, just that you can't with Black. And can't with black may be to strong a way of saying it. Let me explain. Up until about 1930 or so, almost all Schuetzen was shoot with black powder and breech seated bullets. Therefor every shot had an airspace, every shot. An airspace in the loading of your ammo is usually the reason given for a rung chamber. I have severeal loads that are loaded intentionly with an airspace. I always thought I was really tempting fate with these, but they shot soooo well. That was until this months Black Powder Cartridge News arrived. Steve Garbe speaks to this airspace case syndrome. And he also loads some of his ammo with a airspace. That sold me.

Now ringing a chamber with smokeless powder can be easyly done. And I feel that most rung chambers are done with smokeless. Black Powder does not cause the pressure spike needed to ring a chamber.

Gunny

[jBrent]

Gunny, Marsh and all:
I too am relatively new to BPCR (3 yrs) and up to now have accepted the "common knowledge" that the bullet must be placed firmly on the charge to eliminate all air space.  Why?...cuz I was told to by guys who knew what they were doing and most "how to" manuals including the BPC Reloading Primer (P.22) warn against an air space.  I have to admit that the schutzen breach seating practices have caused me to question the rule.  Now if guys like Garbe are saying it is OK...........I'd like to hear a little more.

The load I have working in my 45.70 is faster than I would like, but whenever I back off on the compression, the group opens up.  An air space with less powder but same compression may be the answer, but I don't want to wreck a good rifle.

I have shot quite a few reduced smokeless loads in 30.30 and 6.5x55 some with filler, most without - so far no problems.  Rule of thumb has been - use fast powder.

I have not read any of the articles that suggest leaving an airspace.  Does this apply to all types of BP?  or is it only faster brands in small graulation?  Are they still compressing the powder?  

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has first hand experience with leaving airspace.

......jBrent

[Gunny]

Brent,
I am sure not telling you to start loading with an air space. What I am saying is I load with  an airspace and it will work for me. This goes against commonly held wisdom. I really don't know where the idea came from that says if you load black powder with an airspace you will blow your gun up right now, period. I would think that this rumor got started with muzzleloaders. The barrels on a muzzleloader was for years and years softer than the modern day steeles that we have on our breech loaded rifles. If a guy seated his projectile sort of the powder on a muzzleloader with this softer steele and a round ball held by a patch, thie resulting airspace would swell a barrel. In the case above the bullet held short of the powder and tightly by a patch IS a barrel obstruction. Today we have better steeles in our breechloaders, and I feel that Black Powder will not provide the pressure spick nessasary to ring a chamber. But that is the way I feel, don't make it so. Smokeless powder on the other hand certainly does create this pressure spike or can, that is a chance I am not willing to take with my rifles.

My match rifle a Meacham Highwall in 45-70 has always loved the bullets seated way out of the case to engage the rifling. This creates a lot of powder capacity, more than I needed. This rifle really liked a powder charge of 57 grns of Swiss 2fg, with this powder chg and this oal I had a air space. Gun shot great, today with over 3,000 rounds loaded this way and lead sent downrange i no longer worry about it.

In Garbe's article they loaded these center fire breechloader's from the muzzle, to be sure there was an airspace. A casefull of powder was loaded the normal way, then a bullet was seated from the muzzle to different depths. They shot airspace's of 1/2" all the way to the bullet seated only a few inches from the MUZZLE this would be an airspace of 25 or 28 inches. That's a lot. All testing done in a pressure barrel where they could measure the pressure differences load to load. In all cases the further away the bullet was the less pressure was produced. This really ,makes sense because the further away the bullet was the bigger area the pressure had to expand into.

I am not a theorist, don't go in much for expermenting. Once I find something that works I just shoot the hell out of it. This works for me and I am not worried about loading this way. You on the other hand will have to make up your own mind on weather or not this is something you want to try. I would suggest get a copy of the Black Powder Cartridge News and read this article, I think it will answer most of your questions better than I can.  Good Luck Gunny

[Gunny]

Marsh,

This Meacham was not set up for paper patch bullets. It is a silhouette gun and was chambered with a match grade reamer, this reamer makes for a to spec chamber and is pretty tight. However the leade is designed so that the bullets can be seated deep if that is what the shooter wants. I also shoot a bullet designed for target work. This bullet is cast from a Paul Jones mould and out of 30-1 alloy weighs 544 grns it has a creedmore nose profil and is a bore riding bullet. When Paul made this mould for me I had him cut the first driving band down to bore diameter. So when loaded I have two exposed greese grooves and the secound driving band is engaging the rifling about .030. This makes the bullet almost breechseated. I have found that this FOR ME shoots very well.   Gunny

[Lead pot]

Howdy Marsh,   I didn't want to post this,but I will.I rung my Pedersoli Quigly>45-120 with black powder,I'm still not sure what did it.I got a lot of postes on possibilities what may have caused it.at the time I did this I loaded 540 grain jacketed bullets I swage,because that rifle Just would not shoot lead.These loads were 110 gr.2fwith a milk carton wad on the powder droped from 4ft.compressed a little by hand with a .38 special case.A 1/8" cut bacon grease wad with a post card and news paper wad under the bullet.When I tuched it off it let me know right off something went wrong It kicked like a mule.The case seperateed just below the bullet and went down the barrel with the bullet,and I found it down range about 75 yds flat but in one piece.I looked down the the bore and saw the ring about as wide as my wedding band right were the base of the bullet would have been.
My Browning 85 in .45-70 I breach seat the bullets,and fill the case with 2fI put a card on that with the wad flush with the case mouth ant the case tuches the base of the bullet with no air space.I just seat the primer at home and charge the case at the range like they do ti at a shootzen match.I made the tool it workes fine, and the Rifle likes the load Lp.

[Gunny]

Lead pot,
That was a provocative post, and one that demands a little contemplation. i am going to put down some of my thoughts here, and that is what these are thoughts no flames intended. I have a great deal of experiance with these old rifles and maybe these ideas will help some.

One of the things you said that needs a little work is that this 45-120ss just would not shoot lead. That is a little too much of a blanket statement. I have been messing around with these old guns for severeal years and I have never found one that would not shoot lead bullets. I have owned 9 45-120 and all of them would shoot lead. Now Maybe you need to remember that the 45-120ss is without a doubt the hardest of all of the Black Powder Cartridges to get to shoot. Getting one of these raschels to shoot anything approaching a group is kinda like pulling teeth. It takes a lot of work, but they will shoot. The reason the 45-120ss is so difficult I think is the amount of powder to the dia of the bore. This terrible mismatch causes all kinds of fouling problems and they can be tough to beat. I also think there is a optimum velocity for these old cartridges. Once you get one of these lead slugs moving to fast the lose all of there accuracy, that can be a problem with a case like the 45-120ss.

As to your rung barrel on that Pedersoli. I am sure that you and your friends have pretty much beat this to death. I doubt if I will be able to add anything new but there are severeal things going here. One is I don't think you should ever shoot jacketed bullets with a 110 grn black powder load. The bullet in these old guns is supposed to obturate on fireing. Thus the bullet exspands to fill the bore, this does not happen with smokeless powder only with black. Maybe when your bullet obturated to fill the bore it graped a hold of the case and took some of it with the projectile. Also seperated cases can be caused be severeal differnt things. Dirty or oily chamber, rough chamber, oversize wad and there are more. It would seem to me that your rung barrel and the case seperation have a lot in common. With out the seperated case I doubt that you would have rung that barrel. I am not a big fan of the Pedersoli's, there are fine rifles and seem to shoot very well, it's that foreign thing. I will say this about Pedersoli they are very strong guns, and all Pedersoli's are proofed tested before they are shipped. I whish that American made rifles where proofed tested but alas they are not.

There are probably hundreds of other things that could be taken into consideration here, as to what would cause this to happen. But as I said I am sure that you have pretty much beat this to death. Good luck in the future.   Gunny

[jBrent]

Gunny:
I have a couple questions on your load if you don't mind.

I'm having to use 75gr. of Goex FFG to get my 45.70 to work well - it starts a 531gr. Postell at about 1220-1225fps.   In comparison, your 56 gr. load doesn't seem like much powder but then, I havn't tried Swiss - I'm picturing a case about 2/3 full.  What kind of MVs are you getting? Do you drop tube and/or compress the Swiss to tighten it up or just let it rattle around in the case?  Do you try to keep the powder back on the primer? How do you keep the bullet out where you want it? Full length size? Crimp?

.....jBrent

[Gunny]

Brent,

The load is 57 grns of Swiss in Stairline cases, Winchester Lg. Pistol Primers, .003 newsprint under powder wad, powder dumbed in case no drop tube, powder compressed .050 with a compression die, .030 LDPE over powder wad. Case's are necked sized to provide .003 neck tension this holds the bullet in the case. Bullet seated to an OAL of 3.127 with two exposed greese grooves bullet engages rifling about .030. Velocity is 1125fps measured 15 ft from the muzzle. ES for this load is 4fps i don't have a clue on how to figure SD so we don't know that. this is a very good load in my Highwall. I have shot some groups that are very impressive. It will shoot better than I can hold. An interesting side note, I was recently doing some more load work-up trying to elemnate a vertical stringing problem I have had at the ram line or 547 yds. This load I ended up with is almost the same as the above but with 66 grns of Swiss 2fg and no air-space, loaded exactly the same way with no compression. I chronyd this load at the velocity over 40 shots only went up to 1190fps and an ES of 6. This load shoots very much better at the rams and has elemenated the vertical problem. I have not shot it enough to know how it will do at the closer distance's. Maybe after CHRISTmas I can get a chance to do that work.   Gunny

[Gunny]

Brent,

After thinking about my last post i thought of a couple of things that just may explain this a little better.

The load with 57 grns of Swiss is Swiss 3fg. the new load I am working on is 66 grns of Swiss 2fg. That may explain the velocity difference, I am sure that the airspace plays a part in this as well.Where I got the idea of the 57 grn load is the feller I bought this Meacham from was using a load of 57 grns of Swiss 3fg. Now he seated his bullet deep in the case with all GG covered, and i doubt that he loaded with an airspace. I personally go into load work-up with no preconcieved ideas. I let the gun tell me what it wants, I never tell the gun. this feller was a AAA shooter but had been there for years. As I tested this load 57 grns Swiss 3fg bullet seated deep. It shot O.K. groups where about 6" at 385 meters which is a little over 400 yds. I was not happy with this as a silhouette shooter. This grouping at this distance is on the turkey target at 385 meters it will do fine until you get some wind. A 2 MOA wind at 385 meters and a 6" group put your shot in the next county on a windy day here in Central California. There is just to much of a varible in windy conditions, I feel as if this was the reason this feller hadn't moved up in class in years. I was able to tweak this load a little by moving the bullet out a few thousandths at a time until I had it engaging the rifleing. With this new OAL this Meacham really started to come on, I shot many, many groups in the 4" range and was very happy with this. However I have always had a vertical stringing problem with this load on the rams at 500 meters. There where times this year when i could not miss a ram, and then a little 4 MPH tailwind would come up and shots where high or low. Damn things never seemed to split the difference. The new load of 2fg Swiss looks very good, maybe it will be the end of the stringing problem.

Gunny

[Gunny]

Marsh,

I am something of a pragmatist if something works I do it if it doesn't I don't. A couple of years ago I read another articial written by Steve Garbe about doing this over primer wad. I tried it during load testing and this one thing alone lowered my extreme spread on a chrony run of 15 shots from 17fps to 4fps. That was enough for me, 4fps has got to be good. I will say this though I do get tired of stuffing those damn things in the case. But for those kind of results i will keep stuffing.  Gunny

[Lead pot]

Good Morning Marsh-Gunny.
Gunny thank you for serving. Well you know all of your thoughts are a possible,I wont rule them out.I been  serching this in my mind for a long time,it could be all of the above I dont know.
That Pedersoli shot good with paper patch,when I say good I mean one minute @ 300 yds. when I say bad I mean 4 minute@ 300 to off the paper of a 200 SR-C target.
I recordet over 4000 rounds that went through that rifle and more than 2000 were Jackets with .020 wall thickness those shot extreamly good,but I did learn one thing when you shoot jackets in a powder rifle and get the copper in the bore your lead bullets will tumble. at 200 yds you will get keyholes like you would shooting your AR with a 72 or 80 gr.bullet with a 1-12 or 14 twist barrel.The pedersoli was the only black powder rifle that I shoot jackets in because I could never get that thing to print.I tryed everything from baseguard with pure lead to  the hardest alloy I could mix.
As far as the ring I dont know Guys.It could have been a dirty chamber or lube on the case or fouling in the case I didnt get cleaned out good,who knows.
Your post on the paper wad over the flash hole I read an artical on that also but I dont remember who wrote it .but I tryed it and still use it,but I went one step further I mitrate my rag paper and it seems to work on tighter groupes in some of my rifles.TNX. for the reply Guys.Lp.

[Timberlake]

Leadpot et al,
I too have a Pedersoli 74, but 45-90.  It will not shoot conventionally sized .457-8 lead bullets.  Severe leading and only so-so accuracy.  No matter what alloy or what weight.  I've tried everything I could think of and those things other posters suggested.
This rifle will shoot .450-1 paper patch bullets at 1.5 - 2.0 MOA anytime, even to 300 yds.  While working with a load suggested by another poster I can also shoot paper dirty (no wiping, no tubing) indefinetly.  Not, mind you with the kind of accuracy just listed, but good enough for the kind of competition I find here in N. Iowa.
What's the problem with the Pedersoli?  US groove dimension (.4553) is highly suspect.  Check your dimensions!
After loading some of those "shoot dirty" cartridges I decided to also try 20 rounds of Lyman Postell 535 grainers loaded over the same ingredients as used for the paper.
Got that done.  I tried chambering a couple of rounds in the rifle and discovered that some were sticky in the chamber and some would not chamber at all.  Discovered that due to compression of the powder the cases swelled somewhat.  I had no choice but to run all 60 rds thru an open topped full length resizing die.  This not a practice I do often and certainly do not recommend it.
At the range the paper shot as good as always.  The Postells shot an incredible group at 100 yds.  The best ever!  Better than the paper and again no blowing or tubing.  And NO leading!
So what does all this have to due with ringing a chamber?  Nothing I hope except that it may point a way out of the barrel dilema that so many Pedersoli's seem to exhibit.
Again, check your barrel dim's.  If you discover US conditions and want to shoot lead bullets, go to size slighty under groove size for bullet dia.

George