Picking the smartest pups?

[Sod Farmer]

Do any of you have any methods of picking out the smartest pups from the litter?  I want to get a Lab pup.  I have known some very smart Labs but I have also known some that were real boneheads.  I want a very trainable dog.  This dog will be a part of our family and will also see a fair amount of field use for pheasants and waterfowl.  We currently own a Vizsla that is clearly the most intelligent dog I have ever owned.  He is 10 years old and is slowing down :cry:  - - - so it is time for us to start another pup.  Any advise on how or where to get a really smart one would be greatly appreciated.

[Don Fischer]

Well this is really pretty easy. First thing to do when looking at a litter is to look at pup's ears. If all of them are punctured, leave. The general cause for that is one of two things. Either the litter is being underfed and they are fighting over food or this is one very agressive litter. Find a litter where the pup's appear to be contented. Then ask to see the parents work. If they can't or won't do that, leave. It's the traits of the parent's your looking for even if only one is on site. Once you've found the parents your looking for, Pull out the poorly looking pups. They won't necessairly be bad adults but better to pick from what APPEARS to be the better pup's. There should not be more than one poor pup and maybe none. Sort the pup's into males and females and decide which gender you want. Now, close your eyes and pick one!

That doesn't sound very sientific but nothing is at that age. Well bred dogs do throw bad pups and poorely bred dogs do throw good pups. But what you see in the parents is a reasonable indication of what your going to get. To many people run all kinds of tests to pick the best pup. I haven't seen even one time where any of these test proved anything other than puppies, like children, are different. Choose from good parents and raise and train your pup to do what you want and you'll likely be happy. Do all the cool tests if you like, but choose from good parents and raise and train well and again, you'll likely be happy.

Now if you don't get a breed that's all pretty much the same color, black labs are generally black, then also sort by visual appeal. If you take the wife and kids and they choose one you don't like, don't worry about it, it will grow on you!

[victorcharlie]

It's like don said, it's the parents your really concerned about.  Good seed produces good fruit.  The real advantage the old timers have is they know the dogs that came before, and usually watched several generations in the field.

About pups, read the akc breed standard located at:  http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm  
This will tell you how the dog should be built or put togather.  It's really hard to tell much as pups, but look at the teeth, or specifically, the bite.  Pups won't get their adult teeth until they are close to 5 months, but an overbite or underbite is a genetic flaw and can usually be seen in young pups.

Look at the legs and feet.  They should be reasonably straight but most pups will look nock kneed.  The feet should not be splayed out nor pigeon toed.  I usually like to throw a little dog food on the ground and then walk the pups over to it and see which one finds the food first.  This doesn't really mean anything but at least the pup can smell food right?

This leads me to a story I heard about a world champion coon dog.  The owner sold the litter mates to the world champion and this was the pup that was left.   When the owner was asked about it all he could say was that his dog ran 365 coons last year.   You can have the best blood, with tons of ability, but if the dog doesn't get an opportunity to learn it won't matter.  You have to work the dog if you want a good one.

Now, all this show quality stuff is fine, and the show people would have you believe that because the dog has good straight legs he will have more endurance than a dog with crooked legs and you'll hear other traits they believe to an indication of "superior" quality.  Keep in mind that these are the same people that bread the hunt out of the irish setter and cocker spanial.  Most show stock is not suitable for field use, and it is doubtful that any generation up close has ever been in the field.  (except in Brittney's where the dog must place in the field to be qualified to show).

As your dog will, in all likely hood, be with you for quite awhile, and knowing you can feed a good one for the same price as a bad one, then you need to do what you can to increase your odds of getting a good one.

Start with good bread stock from a quality blood line that has demonstrated it's abilities for at least 3 generations.  Buy from a breeder who actually works the dogs and check his reputation as a breeder among his peers.

Buying a pup instead of a broke dog is a good idea, as your not buying anyone's culls, and you have the same chance as the next guy of getting a good one.

[Don Fischer]

I like you more and more all the time Victorcharlie. Great stuff. One thing, in the Brittanys, They need to be shown to gain a field championship, if I remember it correctly. All the Brittany trials out here run in conjunction with a wanna-be conformation show. The pro's aren't real crazy about it and they only show the dogs that have field promise.
If you've got your dog with a Brittany trainer, AKC not Amer Field, and hes trialing him but not showing, you should take your dog home. Your nothing more than added money for another dog to gain "major" trial points.

One Britt trainer that used to come out here to Britt trials only would always make sure there were enough dogs to qualify the stake, Open All Age, as a major. There might be 25 braces with 27 dogs and he'd run without a bracemate in 23 just to make a major. You really think he had 25 champion quality dogs? I've judged him, he doesn't. But he does have some champions and a whole lot of placements!

[Don Fischer]

I like you more and more all the time Victorcharlie. Great stuff. One thing, in the Brittanys, They need to be shown to gain a field championship, if I remember it correctly. All the Brittany trials out here run in conjunction with a wanna-be conformation show. The pro's aren't real crazy about it and they only show the dogs that have field promise.
If you've got your dog with a Brittany trainer, AKC not Amer Field, and he's trialing him but not showing, you should take your dog home. Your nothing more than added money for another dog to gain "major" trial points.

One Britt trainer that used to come out here to Britt trials only would always make sure there were enough dogs to qualify the stake, Open All Age, as a major. There might be 25 braces with 27 dogs and he'd run without a bracemate in 23 just to make a major. You really think he had 25 champion quality dogs? I've judged him, he doesn't. But he does have some champions and a whole lot of placements!

[victorcharlie]

Well thanks Don.  You and me both know that if a fellow doesn't really know what he's looking for then some of the guys will put a cull on them in a heart beat.   I try not to get to attached to a dog, but have to admit that it happens.  A fellow with kids doesn't have much chance to get rid of a cull so its important to get as good a blood line as possible as this will probably be a long term relationship.

I was a lot like Jerry Jones who owns the Dallas Cowboys in that Dorsett was great but when he couldn't produce any more it was time for him to go.  I keep my dogs to hunt but over the past several years I try not to take it so seriously any more......just have fun right?

[myronman3]

a big thing is first make sure that the breeder has o.f.a. certification on the parents.  if they dont,  walk.  save yourself the heartache.  this is especially important with labs.  

   how i picked my dog.....   i searched for the breeder first.    once i found the breeder,  3/4 of the battle is over.  be choosey.  there are alot of turds out there pretending to be breeders.  

anyway....  if you have family members that are going to be around the dog,  bring them.  make them all stay in the car until you have narrowed down which dogs you DO NOT WANT.   have the breeder put these back in the kennel.     then, once you have dogs you do like in front of you,  sit back and watch them.   dont be in a hurry.  throw something, see if any have interest.   put the pups on their backs,  see what they do.  a dominant dog with fight and fight.  a gentler dog will relax.   i dont like dominant dogs.  too submissive isnt good either; but better than a dominant dog.  (i know that is all subjective, different strokes for different folks)

once you have the onces you dont want seperated,  bring in the family.  see what the pups do around family.   usually,  one dog will pick you.   that has been my experience.


i did all the above,  and narrowed it down to two males.  i couldnt decide, so i asked the breeder which of the two he would take if he were me.   he pointed to one,  and said "they are both good dogs,  but for some reason i like that one"  so i agreed to take "that one"   we turned around, and there was my son sitting in the dirt,  with the other one curled up next to him snuggling.  want to guess which dog we really took home?    lol
the snuggler.    and he is perfect for us.  

so in short,  weed out what you dont like,  then let the ones you do like pick you out.   that is the best  i can do for you.  good luck.

[victorcharlie]

What is O.F.A?

[dukkillr]

could he mean AKC?

[curdog]

pick from good parents no matter what the breed, if possible look at some dogs out of previous litters, there is still good and bad in all, but your odds are better this way.good luck

[myronman3]

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

o.f.a. certified means that the parents have been x ray-ed to check for hip dysplasia.   pups are too young to check, but generally if the parents check out o.k., the pups will be good, too.  of course that isnt 100% reliable, but it is about as close as you are going to get.  nothing is worse than getting a dog that you fall in love with and you have to either sink a boatload of money into surgery or put the animal down when it is less than three years old.    do yourselves a favor,  buy from breeders that the parents are o.f.a. certified.

[myronman3]

as a side note,  the smartest dog isnt always the best option.  especially for me....i dont want a dog that is smarter than i am.  lol.

[Don Fischer]

I don't believe that the OFA will certify a dog befor, either 9 mos or one year, I can't remember which. Pups develope until about a year old inside.

Another breed to really watch for hip dysplasia are the Springer Spaniels. Dysplasia is a genetic problem where the socket doesn't fully develope leaving the ball loose in the hip socket. In severe cases it will cripple your dog. The only fix I know for it is to operate on the hip. The tendion is tied up pulling the ball into the socket. But that doesn't make the problem go away.

Myronman is so right, look for OFA certification on the parrents!!! Another thing we forgot is look at the parents eyes. Loose eyes is another inherited fault thats not good. Loose eyes allow the dog to collect weed seeds under the eye irritating the eyes and constently needs flushed out.
Well one more thing. Make sure the dew claws have been removed. They are the claw on the front leg down near the foot on the inside. If they are there and your dog rips one while hunting, your gonna be out a dog for awhile. Dew claws are removed at 3 to five days. After that you'll have to wait until the vet can put the dog to sleep to remove them. At 3 to 5 days they are just cut off with manicure sissor's.

[Dee]

This may or may not help but, I made my living picking good pups for Police work. I had one make the Nationals for the United States Police K-9 Association in 94 just before I retired so I guess I did ok. Police dogs and hunting dogs all have the same types of personaities just different targets. I broke the dog's personality down in to three drives. The Prey Drive, which is what makes the dog hunt and chase. The Social Drive which is how the dog works around other dogs and people. And the Defensive Drive which in my line of word did the dog back down, stand there and look, or charge in for the confrontation. This last drive may seem useless to you in a hunting dog, but it's not. You call this Drive, Confidence! When buying 10 or 11 month old pups, I would have the owner and myself take the dogs off leash for a walk in a safe area. This was usually done one pup at a time. If the dog came back periodically it showed a sense of responsibility on the pups part to check the whereabouts of the owner. Next, I would have the owner put the dog in an area, it had never been in before and get out of sight. I alone would approach the pup. If the pup approached it showed confidence. Next, I would have the owner lay down on the ground and roll. Sometimes the dog would block the roll by laying down in front of the owner. Once again, a sense of responsibility. Then with all the pups in the same pen I would stand around ignoreing the pups and suddenly rattle a can full of marbles. Some would run, but some would come and see what the racket was. They are the ones I looked at more closely.
If you are looking a weaned pups, say 10 weeks to 4 months old, have the owner put all of them in an area they have never been, and see what happens. Some will show signs of distress, others won't seem to care, but some will check out everything. After about 10 or 15 minutes of this toss that can I mentioned earlier out by them. Not in the middle of them but, say six feet away. Some will scatter, some will just stare, but some will go an see what the rackett is all about. Once again you have identified the strongest pups. Breeding is everything. I bought American raised pups but, with European blood lines. American like pretty dogs. Europeans like working dogs. In your case, you want a field grade bred dog. You can pick a good dog from a good blood line when he is a pup. It's never 100% fool proof, but you can hit more than you miss. Good luck.

[Don Fischer]

Good post Dee. It reminds me of a litter of Britt's a friend of mine had some years ago. We were out running dogs and that evening he turned his pups loose. They were about 16 wks. They left like a shot and as they crossed over a hill and out of sight, one looked back. Jim was looking for just one to keep and I told him that was the one. He said no, it wasn't independent enough. He ended up with several including one renegrade female that he loved. Well we were out rounding up pups until dark and the one I liked came to us when we found him, his favorite female, we had to chase down. A coulpe months later that same female refused him again, still, and got herself run over by a car. The one I liked is now fld ch PHD, Peckerhead Dog (he didn't think AKC would allow that name!). You hit right on that point in your post, there are certain things you could look for but in the end it's a crap shoot. The thing that impressed me with the litter right away was their complete lack of caring where the boss was, except for PHD (Doc). But the litter pulled him on that first run I watched. The danger of some of the tests is not understanding what your looking at. Some pups are bold to a fault and some timid to a fault. Thats why I say look to the parents. I also think that at least 60% of what the pup has comes from the mother. Pay special attention to her.

Having worked with police dogs, have you read "The Monks of New Skete"? Great book for anyone with a dog. They live in a monistary in New Skete, New York and raise and train German Shepards, great book!

[Dee]

I try never to read anything coming out of New York, as I am afraid Hillary will get wind of it and think I agree with her about something. No, as far as my post on picking pups, the breeding is the real key. I trained two dogs from the same parents but, different litters that both made good patrol dogs. One I used myself, a crossed trained him on narcotics. That's where a lot of people go wrong, they pick pretty dogs. I wanted the European ones, preferably Germany with a heavy Shultzan back ground. For hunt though, field grade. I started out back in the sixties training roping horses, and raiseing and training bird dogs (pointers). I don't know about the mama dog theroy though. I have seen some heavy gene traits come straight outa daddy on patrol and hunting dogs. I think its just getting a good all around gene mix. As far as picking pups like I was talking about. You would be surprized if your looking at good dogs to begin with and have the opportunity to look at a lot of dogs. If you get one good patrol dog out of an entire litter your lucky, and I didn't miss much when I picked, but I did miss some.

[hicntry]

I pick most of my pups for people. They tell me what they are looking for and I send them the pup. Most are picked by 4 1/2 to 5 weeks of age with very similar reasons that have been mentioned by Dee and Don. To me, confidence is everything because the line has excess prey drive. Picking pups is tough only because 99.9% of the breeders handle them from day one in this day and age. This conditions the unconfident pups to being handled so no one can tell them from the good ones without taking them out and playing pick the right pup roulette.  I let mom and dad raise the pups for the first 4 weeks with no intervention. When they have their legs under them, I go out and talk to them because they have heard my voice as I am cleaning the pens. The picking should be done before they get exposed to much of their new environment. This is when you can see the real make up of the pup. Some come right up to me and start playing with me but they stay with me.....these are the most confident but more dependent personalities, easier to train for certain venues such as birds and they ultimately will stay closer to you. Some come right up to me and check me out and they are off investigating.....these ar more confident, independent personalities and make better fur dogs if one needs a dog that will range out the distance needed for bear and hogs. The majority of each litter is a bit slower but they come and are noted accordingly. Then, there are always the few that head back for the whelping box to safety. These are the ones that need a lot of handling but they make great pets if that is what someone wants. You guys think back to your grandads when they had pups born under the porch or behind the barn. They left them alone until they were on their feet. Once they were up and moving, my grandad would go out and watch them for a few minutes and pick the one he wanted. Then he went in and called his friends and told them to come and pick theirs. You used to be able to tell a good pup without all the can throwing and stuff.

[oso45-70]

Gentleman, This is a very sad day for me, My little brittney bitch reached her last day yesterday and i had to put her down, She was my buddy and one heck of a bird dog, She would also chum Coyotes for me and lead them right up to me to shoot. I have been a dog person all my life and have had some great dogs but nothing like her.
I honestly thought she would outlive me but i think that was wishful thinking. I am going to miss her. Now i don't know if i will get another dog or not. Take care fellers.........Joe............

[Dee]

4570, I have 2 jack russells that will probably last as long as I will be able to hunt. Right now I have 9 pups in the kennel out of my bitch. I'm thinking of keeping one of them males. My stud dog is a hunting machine and this pup will be four years behind his daddy. So the new pup will be insurance for latter years hunts, and maybe he'll help a too brave daddy when we run across an upset hog. Get another brittany, it'll keep you going. Shoot if your had died instead, and I had showed up with a shotgun, I'll bet your old dog would have went huntin with me. That's what we do. We keep goin.

[Don Fischer]

When I lost my "Skipper" I felt the same. Then I started looking at pup's but couldn't find him. Skip was a Springer so I quit looking for springers and found a shorthair. Until right now I've never been without several dogs again, takes some of the edge off of loosing them. When "Otis" is gone, 14yr old pointer, I'll get another. Maybe not right away but I will get one. The thing about dogs is once they invade your soul, you are hooked for life. You'll get another because we're all better for having them!

Sorry to hear of your loss. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for anyone that handled the loss of a good dog without grief.

[hemiram]

One thing to look for, in regards to "smarts" is the smarter pups tend to be the more highly ranked ones. When I got the two mutts I have now, there were eight out of 13 pups left, and the "boss" pup was busy running the others around, basically herding them, except for one, all around. That one just watched the boss run himself ragged, and walked up to us, climbed up on the couch and went to sleep in a minute. We said, "Well, there's one!". The other one we took was a female who seemed to stay with the other one all the time, in the pics the "breeder" had of them, she was always next to him, or behind him. From the pics and the way the other pups reacted to him, it was clear he was the "enforcer", the #2. Almost all the benefits of #1, without all the work, all he has to do is back up the boss if the other pups get too rowdy. It's a smart way to go.

He's scary smart, and is my "Dog of a lifetime". He's the healthiest dog I have ever had, too. We named him King, and he deserves it. The other one, Molly is a nervous nelly who rules the yard, again, doing all the work of killing invaders and harassing the poor dumb dog stupid enough to jump over the fence, with two exceptions, the female shepherd next door is allowed in, and a huge Lab pup who already weighs over 120 pounds and is skinny as hell, is also allowed to come in to play with King. Molly doesn't like it, but King decides what happens in all matters. Molly has tried to pull a "Coup",    occasionally, and it's gone very badly every time she tries it. Sadly, she has bad hips and allergies.

[Ranger J]

While owning mostly mutts that have been foisted on us I have tried the ‘surprise’ test on them.  I had three of them in the back yard and when I would shake a tin with rocks in it or pop open a self opening umbrella at them I had two that would come eagerly to investigate the new occurrence and one that would seem to teleport herself to the nearest cover and check things out from there.  When my young daughter was out walking the three and happened on a copperhead it was this same ‘flighty’ dog that stepped between her and the snake and then jumped in and dispatched it.  Unfortunately she died of cancer long before she should have.  I guess it wasn’t that she was flighty but that she just liked to study strange things from a distance.  Yet when it was called for such as the snake instance or the occasional coon or groundhog that was unfortunate enough to enter the yard, she was the first to pile into it.  A good dog is a treasure and in any case they leave us too soon.
RJ

[SHOOTALL]

I am on my third lab , i duck and goose hunt , if you go to a breeder check the paper work on the blood line of both parents . if you want a hunter or a smart dog ( teachable ) the the blood line should have field trial winners , hunter test achievers etc. if you find these things ask to see the older dog work , you can't expect to get a top rate dog on a cut rate price , it could happen , but you would not have asked the ? if you wanted to gamble !
then play with the pups the one most interested is the one i pick ! also if the breeder is on the up and up he will allow you to return the pup if any problems come up like hips etc. , but ask before you buy !

[hemiram]

While owning mostly mutts that have been foisted on us I have tried the ‘surprise’ test on them.  I had three of them in the back yard and when I would shake a tin with rocks in it or pop open a self opening umbrella at them I had two that would come eagerly to investigate the new occurrence and one that would seem to teleport herself to the nearest cover and check things out from there.  When my young daughter was out walking the three and happened on a copperhead it was this same ‘flighty’ dog that stepped between her and the snake and then jumped in and dispatched it.  Unfortunately she died of cancer long before she should have.  I guess it wasn’t that she was flighty but that she just liked to study strange things from a distance.  Yet when it was called for such as the snake instance or the occasional coon or groundhog that was unfortunate enough to enter the yard, she was the first to pile into it.  A good dog is a treasure and in any case they leave us too soon.
RJ

This is another good idea. We tried all this kind of thing on King and he barely blinked, Molly jumps and usually her hair on her back goes straight up and she will bark, and duck and weave. My last dog, a Pit Bull/Golden Retreiver/?? Mix would "bail" when you startled him. It wouldn't last for long, most of the time he calmed down right away, but one time, we got a new chair and put it in the living room with a sheet over it, to keep the cat's hair off it, the dog saw it, and spent about a half hour ducking and weaving, growling at the chair as if it was alive. I was pretty funny to watch, especially when he finally touched his nose to it, and realized what it was. I think he was embarrassed at being so scared of it That chair ended up being his favorite chair to sleep in for the rest of his long life. One of the best things about the two dogs I have now is the total lack of fear about loud noises. Fireworks, thunderstorms, etc, don't bother either of them in the slightest, and even Molly will ignore a lot of things that all my previous dogs would either be scared of, or bark at. On the Friday night before July 4th, they will watch the fireworks show over at a nearby shopping center, as they have for 8 years now. My last dog would crawl under the coffee table and shake when he heard anything more than a cap gun go off a half mile away. He was amazingly strong, but a total basket case during rainstorms, and during fireworks season. They are getting grey now, and I get sad to think they will be gone in 6 or 7 years, at most. 

[hellbilly075]

My opinion has always been while picking a coon dog that it is like buying a lotto ticket but having too wait a year to scratch it!!!   Hellbilly

[hellbilly075]

The trick is not to pick the pup but pick the litter. If a pup has a good sire but unproven dam that does not mean that use will get half a good dog. You must pick from good stock. The parents and grandparent must be of good hunting stock. A little trick we use here in the hills of Kentucky is to handle each dog. What you want is a pup that will struggle a bit then relax in your arms. What it shows is that by struggleing that its has desire to be out hunting and the relaxes shows that it accepts that you are alpha dog and willingness to be trained.

[Tonk]

Picking a good puppy is not a tuff ordeal! The main thing is to pick a very good litter of pups to begin with and not one that just has 2 or 3 left in the litter. Remember that it costs you just as much money to raise a run or the mill puppy, as it does to raise a pup out of national champions. It also involves a lot of time and training. So better to pay for a good registered AKC pup out of good parents then to go for the Cheap Puppy and find out 16 months later, it does not cut the mustard for you in the field. Titled dogs backing up a pedigree give one an insurance policy that those genes were passed on to the puppy.

I used to raise labs years ago and they are tuff to keep home when they get the want to roam. Hunting dogs need not to be left to fend for themselves because they will get hit by a car, shot by some person wanting to just shoot something and in the spring they can be 20 miles away looking for ladies.

We raise German Shorthair Pointers and the first thing I can tell you when I am looking at a pup in a litter, is that I want "boldness" a pup who will come right to you without Fear. Next is looking at a pup that is not affraid to go off on it's own. In bird dog litters I like to see who has a good nose by putting down a small covered cage with a quail or pigeon inside. Then I watch to see which pups go to that bird and hopefully go on point........that's the one I want.

[newstart2k]

Most of my experience comes from coonhounds but a lot seems to carry over to other breeds and types.

I've found, for reasons unknown to me, that the best dogs tend to come from the best grandsires on the sires side. In other words, if you can check out the lines or even better the dogs themselves, check out the dad's. dad.

Something else to try is to handle the pups individually while you're sitting down. Lay the pup on his back on your legs and gauge his reaction. They should struggle to turn themselves back over but not go into a "long" panic (or pee all over you) if you gently pin them down by holding your palm against their stomach. There isn't a correct reaction to this but it came help in evaluating one pup against another.

The most important thing though is to look at the pups several different times. When you walk up to a kennel you don't know which pup just laid down because it had been chasing every dragonfly within sight for the past hour and which one just woke up from a nap. Make several trips (at least three) and note the diffrent behaviors each time before you make a decision.

All this assumes you've done what others here have said and checked the breeders first.

[Tonk]

Gentlemen, I would like to say that inorder to get the best possible offspring or a puppy, horse, bird etc. One has to bred the BEST to the BEST and they you perhaps pray and hope for the best.

I have seen time and time again, someone who states they have a great hunting female and the owner wants an even better dog to replace her. Then he or she starts looking for a stud dog. Now the female usually has NO breeding to back her bloodlines up (meaning no titled champions on the pedigree) and this is a big NO NO. It cost just as much to feed and take care of a "dink pup" as it does a well bred pup. The price of good food will have you spending close to $450 dollars a year for food and then Vet visits for shots and the all important rabies shot ($30 bucks for the visit and $18 for the shot) which I will not give myself. One needs that Vet certification to take a dog out of state!

You want to start with a female, that already has the breeding behind her and then seek out that champion male stud dog! Then the litter will be worth something and you will not waste the next 2 years of your time and money, along with prayers hoping this pup from that litter works out for you. Out littlers are out of daughter's of national champions bred back to champion males! Now this produces top quality dogs in the long run without problems.

We do not bred females that do not have a good pedigree in the first place! Our breed does not need anymore mediocre dogs that hunt sometimes or have bad habits etc. If people want a lap dog fine, get yourself a cocker spaniel.