yea the optima's are more exspensive, but mine were made in 2004 and are really heavy. i handled a new one in my local gun shop the other day and they are much lighter. i already ask the shop owner on trade but the deal he gave me wasn't good considering one of my optima's have never been shot. he said he'd give me $175 for both on trade in thats it, he said the older heavier guns don't sell good. i went to my friend to see what else we could do, the timber ridge are just basic guns but lighter and i only shoot muzzleloaders during hunting season. they are new and built good but i've never owned a traditions but since they come from cabela's i would think they would be good guns. he said the best he could do is $200 his final offer between the two guns for two guns. i told him i would let him know tomorrow night one way or another, i'm gonna check around to see some other places and what they will do. i just need a lighter gun that will get the job done. thanks