Author Topic: Please, I Need Your Help Identifying this Black Powder revolver (Read 2684 times)

Hammerdown · « **on:** November 09, 2009, 02:56:46 AM »

Hello
To start out here I know Nothing about Black Powder revolvers. I was given this one by a friend and it is Missing some parts as you can see. I need to find out what I have here before I can look for the part's it is lacking. As you can see in the Pictures it has very little stampings to show what it is. It is of what I determined it to be .36 Caliber. The Only ones I have seen that come close to this one in looks are The Armi San Marco revolvers. Any Information that someone can provide would be greatly appreciated, or a source for Parts would be of Great help as well,. Thanks, Hammerdown

Elijah Gunn · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2009, 04:01:28 AM »

It looks like a brass framed replica of a Colt 1851 Navy. I have one that is a steel frame. As far as parts,it looks like you will need a wedge (it holds the barrel assembly to the frame of the pistol), and an entire loading lever assembly. Sources for parts would be , Dixie Gun Works, and VTI replica gun parts.
In the third picture you posted (good closeups BTW) the serial numbers on the barrel and the frame do not match. This means that the pistol is not how it came from the factory.
Brass framed pistols while looking very pretty, can tend to stretch the frame and "shoot loose" if they are used with standard to heavy powder charges. If you get this one working keep it light.
I was thinking of taking one of my c&b pistols to a smith awhile ago, and I wanted to find someone who pretty much specialized in these type of guns. It was suggested that I ask at my local cowboy action shooting club(SASS), or civil war reenactor club (NSSA).
Bottom line, if the frame is good you should have a nice c&b pistol. Have fun making smoke, and please use real black powder it's highly addictive!

Also be sure to read the "sticky" at the top of this forum, the one written by Gatofeo entitled "proper use of cap and ball revolver" all the basics are there.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2009, 04:03:08 AM »

The stamps shown are Italian proof marks, specifically, Gardone proof House, 1978. That's not enough information to identify a maker but if you get replacement parts for an 1851 Navy Colt they will probably fit. Dixie Gun Works will have the parts. You need a complete loading lever assembly with plunger, latch and pivot screw, a wedge and wedge screw.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:37:52 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on November 09, 2009, 04:03:08 AM

The stamps shown are Italian proof marks, specifically, Gardone proof House, 1978.

Hello Coyotejoe
I appreciate your input, but how did you tell what year this revolver was made ? In my Travels yesterday I came across one that Looks exactly like this, but is chambered in .44 Caliber. I ended up with it for $100.00 and it looks barely fired. I will Try to locate the parts for the .36 Caliber revolver shown Now so I can play with Two caliber's. I know these Italian Knock off's are not the best Black Powder revolver's out there, but for the money I spent on one it will allow me to see if I want to lay out some serious cash for a better one. One last question here... Has anyone shot Hodgens Pyrodex R-S Loose Powder in a .44 ? Will it work, and what grainage would I want to use with a Traditions lead Ball as the Bullet ? Thank's to all that reply, I really appreciate it. best regards, Hammerdown

Hammerdown · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:41:18 AM »

Quote from: Elijah Gunn on November 09, 2009, 04:01:28 AM

Brass framed pistols while looking very pretty, can tend to stretch the frame and "shoot loose" if they are used with standard to heavy powder charges. If you get this one working keep it light.

Hello Elijah
I appreciate your comments as well here. Can you share with me what amount of Powder to use with the .36 Caliber as to Not Hurt it or stretch this frame ? I have some Hodgens R-S Pyrodex on hand, but from what I have been reading they suggest The Hodgens P Powder. I Look forward to Hearing your Input here. Thanks, Hammerdown

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:00:29 AM »

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf

The AD means 1978.

I think 15 grains is a good starting point for your 36. You can work a load from there.

Elijah Gunn · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2009, 02:01:52 AM »

I only use real black powder, so I don't know for sure what would be best with pyrodex. If the pyrodex, or P Powder is an even 1 for 1 replacement for black powder then 15 gr. is a lighter load like fr3db3ar says. I use about 20 - 22 gr. of black powder in both of my .36 cal. guns.

simonkenton · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2009, 02:57:31 AM »

I know these Italian Knock off's are not the best Black Powder revolver's out there

The Italian repros are all we have.
True the American Ruger is tops in quality, but it is not an authentic repro, it doesn't look like anything used in the Civil War. To each his own, but I dislike the looks of the Ruger.

So you are left with Italian repros.
The quality is pretty good, I have a Uberti and a Pietta. I have had to replace 3 springs but otherwise can't complain.

Yes your brass gun can shoot loose, but that would take a long time with high powered loads.
It is an authentic repro as brass framed guns were made during the Civil War.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:24:52 AM »

Quote from: simonkenton on November 10, 2009, 02:57:31 AM

I know these Italian Knock off's are not the best Black Powder revolver's out there

The Italian repros are all we have.
True the American Ruger is tops in quality, but it is not an authentic repro, it doesn't look like anything used in the Civil War. To each his own, but I dislike the looks of the Ruger.

So you are left with Italian repros.
The quality is pretty good, I have a Uberti and a Pietta. I have had to replace 3 springs but otherwise can't complain.

Yes your brass gun can shoot loose, but that would take a long time with high powered loads.
It is an authentic repro as brass framed guns were made during the Civil War.

Hello simonkenton
I want to make this Perfectly Clear, I was not knocking the quality of these Italian Knock off Black powder revolvers. I have had some others though, make Lewd comments about them But they are fine to me. I do not wish to fork out Big Bucks for any Black Powder revolver's as I haven't for my Black Powder rifle that is a CVA Bolt action in Line Gun that shoots very tight groups and Pleases me. I Just want something to play with to see whether or not I Like them, before Investing more money in a Finer quality weapon. While I was finishing the Transaction on the recent purchased .44 Black Powder revolver I Picked up that Looks exact to my 36 Caliber revolver, some Idiot Informed me that is I was looking for accuracy, I wouldn't find it in the cheap Italian revolver I was Buying. I Looked his way, and said "Is that so" ? Tell Ya what, Why don't you stand out there at 100 Yards after I get used to firing this one, and we will see if you are still standing after the smoke clears ? He got my Drift that I did not want to hear his Chin Music and moved on. It seems there has always got to be a Tire Kicker expert wanting to Run His Pie Hole, when we don't want to hear it or need their Nickels worth of Unfounded advice... Hammerdown

teamnelson · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:54:44 AM »

you're among friends here ... tell us how you feel

bedbugbilly · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2009, 06:45:46 AM »

Hammerdown - It looks like you have a couple of fun projects - one finding parts and fixing up the .36 and two, getting acquainted with your new .44. I have a brass frame .36 that is similar to yours but with a shorter round barrel - it is stamped Navy Arms. There are those that don't like brass frames and those that do. Shot with the proper loads, they can all be a lot of fun whether they are brass or steel framed. I don't really know who made the .36 brass frame that I have other than it is an Italian made piece. Quality is high and it is a real joy to shoot and plink with. It just sort of melts into you hand and becomes an extension of the arm. I also have a 1851 Colt Navy and a 1858 Remington Navy (Pietta). I love all of 'em! I started out years ago with a '51 Navy and just got used to plinking with the .36. I cast my own and use the same ball in all of the revolvers - it is just convenient for me. Someday . . . . maybe I'll grow up and play with the "big boys" that shoot .44 cal. . . . . but then, I enjoy being a "kid" too much (been shooting BP for over 40 years) . . . . . besides . . . if I started shooting .44 cal. I'd have to put my "big boy pants" on. Smile smile Whether you're shooting a .31, .36 or a .44, they are all fun and that's what it is all about. Good luck with your pistols and I hope you are able to get all the parts together to fix up the .36. Have fun and shoot safely.

NickSS · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:47:32 PM »

I have both 36 and 44 repro colt revolvers of the 1851 type. One 44 is a brass frame one like you just got. I shoot mostly real black powder FFFG in it usually a 30 gr load with a RB. For my 36s I generally shoot 20 gr also with a RB. I have shot several pounds of Pyrodex p and RS in revolvers as well. I use the same measure for measuring the pyrodex as Black powder. Works about the same. RS will give you lower velocity than P will. Pyrodex P will give you slightly more velocity than FFFG GOEX will.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #12 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:34:43 AM »

Quote from: NickSS on November 12, 2009, 11:47:32 PM

I have both 36 and 44 repro colt revolvers of the 1851 type. One 44 is a brass frame one like you just got. I shoot mostly real black powder FFFG in it usually a 30 gr load with a RB. For my 36s I generally shoot 20 gr also with a RB. I have shot several pounds of Pyrodex p and RS in revolvers as well. I use the same measure for measuring the pyrodex as Black powder. Works about the same. RS will give you lower velocity than P will. Pyrodex P will give you slightly more velocity than FFFG GOEX will.

Hello Nick
Thanks, This was exactly what I was looking for. I now have a starting Point to Load Both of these Cap & Ball revolvers. In regards to using the Pyrodex R-S Powder do I dispense the same amount of Grains that you have indicated using the FFFG Powder ? Regards, Hammerdown

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #13 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:35:20 AM »

Quote from: Hammerdown on November 13, 2009, 01:34:43 AM

Quote from: NickSS on November 12, 2009, 11:47:32 PM
I have both 36 and 44 repro colt revolvers of the 1851 type. One 44 is a brass frame one like you just got. I shoot mostly real black powder FFFG in it usually a 30 gr load with a RB. For my 36s I generally shoot 20 gr also with a RB. I have shot several pounds of Pyrodex p and RS in revolvers as well. I use the same measure for measuring the pyrodex as Black powder. Works about the same. RS will give you lower velocity than P will. Pyrodex P will give you slightly more velocity than FFFG GOEX will.

Hello Nick
Thanks, This was exactly what I was looking for. I now have a starting Point to Load Both of these Cap & Ball revolvers. In regards to using the Pyrodex R-S Powder do I dispense the same amount of Grains that you have indicated using the FFFG Powder ? Regards, Hammerdown

You can load Prodex P the same as real black FFFg. I highly recommend you use a reduced load in your brass framed revolvers. Loads that are normal in a steel frame revolver can cause damage to the recoil shield and loosen the arbor in a brass frame revolver. For a brass frame I would not load more than half the gun caliber, a .44 would be 22grs or less. Personally i use a 20gr load in my brass open top .44's and 15 grs in my brass open top .36's.. It may be some what of a mouse fart load but it does not beat the heck out of the frame. If I want more smoke I can stuff close to 60grs in my Walker.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #14 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:41:16 AM »

Quote from: madcratebuilder on November 13, 2009, 02:35:20 AM

You can load Prodex P the same as real black FFFg. I highly recommend you use a reduced load in your brass framed revolvers. Loads that are normal in a steel frame revolver can cause damage to the recoil shield and loosen the arbor in a brass frame revolver. For a brass frame I would not load more than half the gun caliber, a .44 would be 22grs or less. Personally i use a 20gr load in my brass open top .44's and 15 grs in my brass open top .36's.. It may be some what of a mouse fart load but it does not beat the heck out of the frame. If I want more smoke I can stuff close to 60grs in my Walker.

Hello madcratebuilder
In using the Hodgen's Pyrodex Powder called R-S can I dispense the same amount of Powder Grains as you have suggested in using the Hodgen's pyrodex Powder called "P" ?. I ask this as I all ready have on hand The R-S Pyrodex Powder to work with. Thanks, Hammerdown

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #15 on:** November 13, 2009, 03:02:49 AM »

Think of the Pyrodex RS as FFg and the Pyrodex P as FFFg. Just a different grain size. The larger grain powder burns slower giving you slightly less pressure. I have used P in rifles and RS in pistols when it's all I had on hand.

The only way I can get real black is mail order and the haz-mat fee jacks the price up. Not bad if you can get a few guys together and order ten pounds or more. I'm shooting P powder more and more.

How's your project coming? I may have a loading lever around here if you haven't ordered one yet. It's from a .44 so you would need a .36 rammer, but I think the levers may be the same if the barrel length is the same.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #16 on:** November 13, 2009, 11:41:39 AM »

Quote from: madcratebuilder on November 13, 2009, 03:02:49 AM

Think of the Pyrodex RS as FFg and the Pyrodex P as FFFg. Just a different grain size. The larger grain powder burns slower giving you slightly less pressure. I have used P in rifles and RS in pistols when it's all I had on hand.

The only way I can get real black is mail order and the haz-mat fee jacks the price up. Not bad if you can get a few guys together and order ten pounds or more. I'm shooting P powder more and more.

How's your project coming? I may have a loading lever around here if you haven't ordered one yet. It's from a .44 so you would need a .36 rammer, but I think the levers may be the same if the barrel length is the same.

Hello Madcratebuilder
Thanks for the info. My project is at a stand still. I can't find parts for this ASM Revolver. I will be shooting the 44 shortly though when I free us some time... Hammerdown

StrawHat · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2009, 01:44:55 AM »

Quote from: Hammerdown on November 13, 2009, 11:41:39 AM

Hello Madcratebuilder
Thanks for the info. My project is at a stand still. I can't find parts for this ASM Revolver. I will be shooting the 44 shortly though when I free us some time... Hammerdown

Kurt,

These folks are fairly knowledgable about the different manufacturers and what parts will interchange.

http://vtigunparts.com/

Also, some of the forums that cater to the Cowboy Clubs have stuff for sale. If you want I will search around for something.

StrawHat · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2009, 01:48:10 AM »

Quote from: madcratebuilder on November 13, 2009, 03:02:49 AM

I may have a loading lever around here if you haven't ordered one yet. It's from a .44 so you would need a .36 rammer, but I think the levers may be the same if the barrel length is the same.

If Hammerdown passes on this, please let me know as I need one of them to further along a project on my bench.

Hammerdown · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2009, 01:48:51 PM »

Quote from: StrawHat on November 14, 2009, 01:44:55 AM

Quote from: Hammerdown on November 13, 2009, 11:41:39 AM
Hello Madcratebuilder
Thanks for the info. My project is at a stand still. I can't find parts for this ASM Revolver. I will be shooting the 44 shortly though when I free us some time... Hammerdown

Kurt,

These folks are fairly knowledgable about the different manufacturers and what parts will interchange.

http://vtigunparts.com/

Also, some of the forums that cater to the Cowboy Clubs have stuff for sale. If you want I will search around for something.

Hello Kevin
I appreciate the Link, But I have all ready touched base with them, and they have Nothing for an ASM Revolver...Hammerdown

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:25:01 AM »

Quote from: Hammerdown on November 14, 2009, 01:48:51 PM

Quote from: StrawHat on November 14, 2009, 01:44:55 AM
Quote from: Hammerdown on November 13, 2009, 11:41:39 AM
Hello Madcratebuilder
Thanks for the info. My project is at a stand still. I can't find parts for this ASM Revolver. I will be shooting the 44 shortly though when I free us some time... Hammerdown

Kurt,

These folks are fairly knowledgable about the different manufacturers and what parts will interchange.

http://vtigunparts.com/

Also, some of the forums that cater to the Cowboy Clubs have stuff for sale. If you want I will search around for something.

Hello Kevin
I appreciate the Link, But I have all ready touched base with them, and they have Nothing for an ASM Revolver...Hammerdown

Finding ASM parts well be hard. Depending on the parts needed, Uberti or Pietta may interchange with minor hand fitting.

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2009, 11:43:16 PM »

From that semi-clear picture that appears to be a Palmetto Armory. They failed in the 80's. Their stuff was rarely trademarked. Parts are very iffy. Brass frames wear and loosen very quickly, even brass '58 Remingtons will stretch.

I find the Italians will make as good a gun as your willing to pay for. Pedersoli and Uberti[now Beretta] tend to be pretty good.