New regulations for Big Game Hunting

[jumpsteady]

I question KDWP about the case length part of the Handgun section of the rules. It seems that they have changed the rules without informing anybody. I don't have my original message that I sent, but here is the reply I got back, along with the rules as listed on KDWP website.


It appears that you may be referring to the former regulation on legal calibers.  The current regulation, KAR 115-4-4 (C) (3) defines the legal caliber for big game as follows:

"centerfire rifles and handguns that are not fully automatic, that fire a bullet larger than .23 inches in diameter, and that use a cartridge case that is 1.280 inches or more in length, while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets, except for the hunting of elk, which shall require a bullet larger than .25 inches in diameter and a cartridge case that is 1.75 inches or more in length;"

As you will note, the standard for rifles and handguns is the same.  The minimum case length for a cartridge is exactly what the regulation states.  To attempt to establish allowances or tolerances from the established length becomes subjective, and in reality sets a minimum length shorter that what the law allows.  I realize that 1.272 is 0.008 of an inch less than the legal limit and it is not a large amount of difference, but nevertheless it is a length that is shorter than the established minimum case length limit.  Therefore, a case 1.272 inches long does not meet the minimum standard for a legal cartridge.

I hope this helps in answering your questions.  Please advise if I may be of further assistance.

--
Col. Kevin W. Jones
Director of Law Enforcement
Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks
512 SE 25th Ave.
Pratt, KS 67124
phone: 620-672-0705
fax: 620-672-0725



And here is what the website has to say about it


Legal rifle for deer - centerfire rifles that are not fully automatic and that fire a bullet larger than .23 inches in diameter, while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets.
 
 And

Legal handgun for deer - centerfire handguns that are not fully automatic, fire a bullet larger than .23 inches in diameter, and use a cartridge case 1.280 inches or more in length, while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets.

[jumpsteady]

     So here is my problem to all of this. I believe that whoever made these new rules just went through some reloading manual and picked out the maximum case length as their number that they used for the regulations. The problems is that if you reload and trim your brass then your brass may be to short making it illegal, if you buy ammo from any manufacturer you better check the case length before you go out hunting, it may be illegal.

     I have 5 once fired, factory loaded Federal .357 cases that measure at 1.2765", 1.278", 1.2805", 1.276", and1.276" which means that only one of the 5 would have been legal to use deer hunting as the other four are to short.

     I have brand new unloaded, unprimed, un-trimmed, straight out of the bag Winchester .357 cases. I pulled 5 cases at random out of the bag. 1.2735", 1.276", 1.275", 1.278", and 1.273". That means that I can't use any of those cases to deer hunt.

     I have 2 once fired .44 mag Hornady LeveRevelution cases that measure 1.264" and 1.2665". I didn't even Measure any of the loaded stuff, but I will bet that none of it is legal either.

     Lastly I have 5 once fired Winchester white box .44 mag cases. They measure at 1.274", 1.2725", 1.270", 1.2695", and 1.2695". That means that out of all the factory loaded stuff that I have shot none of it will be legal to use for deer hunting in the state of Kansas.

[jumpsteady]

So here is the deal. What happens when a guy gets on the Internet and pulls up either of the two case drawings that I posted, sees the either or both the .357 and the .44 are legal, goes to his local sporting goods store, buys a box of ammo, and goes and shots a deer. Now on the way home the game warden stops him. He shows the game warden that he shot the deer with a handgun. The game warden checks the case length, too short. Now, who is at fault. The shooter, for not checking, the manufacturer, for making cases shorter than what their blueprint says, or the moron that wrote the rules without asking anybody else's opinion or input, and has now found a way for the state of Kansas to bring in income from the average guy the didn't measure the case lengh on his factory loaded ammo.

I plan to call at least Starline Brass, and see what they tell me they run their .357 and .44 brass at on length. I am a machinist, so I understand the way things work in a shop, I understand that there are tolerances and allowances, I know that sometimes stuff goes out the door that shouldn't because it is out of spec. But what the state has now done is make most everybody that handgun hunts in this state a criminal by more than likely no faulty of their own

[Slowhanddd]

I would really doubt that the G/W would have a mic on him.He'd more than likely see that it was a 357 or 44 and not even care.If it was me and I could find the officer in charge of the area that I was hunting in and ask his take on it.I'm packing a 357 with me this year too.Probably wont use it,but it'll be in it's holster under my arm.Haven't measured my ammo and probably wont.I just think it's splitting hairs,but then again,It's Kansas.Slow

[DavidKansas]

  I will be packing my small hand gun---7-30 Waters with a 14 " barrel I do not think the game warden will even look at the shells more than once. But that is just my back-up gun I still like the Encore in 50 cal. muzzle loader. The rifle season is fast on the way. I do hope everyone hunts safe and getts a big one or two, for me it is just time for the 2 does and a trip to the locker plant to donate the deer to the feed the hungry program. Good hunting to everyone.

[jumpsteady]

Slowhandd, You are correct, I doubt the game warden would have a set of calipers on or with them. But the director of law enforcement for KDWP says that is the rule and there is no leeway. That is enough to make me not want to do it. I can't afford the ticket that they would likely write me.

DavidKansas, you are safe with you 7-30 waters. Case length according to the blueprint that I have is 2.040" making it legal for all big game animals in the state of Kansas.

I just think that something needs to be changed before some over zealous, over educated, scatter brained, rookie game warden decides that he is going to start writing tickets.

[Big Nasty]

I can kill a deer with an arrow, but the state is worried about case length. If I have to start loading my arrows I am done. The question of the day; How much powder do I need to properly load my carbon arrows for legal deer hunting in KANSAS.

[jumpsteady]

That is a very good question Nasty. I understand why they put a case length requirement in the law. Except for the absolute expert handgun hunters , nobody, NOBODY should be trying to shoot a deer with a .25 acp or .380 auto. I'm not even a big fan of hunting with a .38 special. But to say that you can't use a .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, or .45 long colt because the case length of a commerically load round might be 0.002" to short is stupid.

[dukkillr]

That is a very good question Nasty. I understand why they put a case length requirement in the law. Except for the absolute expert handgun hunters , nobody, NOBODY should be trying to shoot a deer with a .25 acp or .380 auto. I'm not even a big fan of hunting with a .38 special. But to say that you can't use a .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, or .45 long colt because the case length of a commerically load round might be 0.002" to short is stupid.

I doubt seriously if anyone would ever actually make that argument.  If you stay away from public duck marshes and big public pheasant areas you are unlikely to ever see a game warden in Kansas.  The reason is simple: money.  We simply don't have that many agents in the state, and very few west of Topeka.  Those few that are out there are busy, crazy busy during rifle season.  I would be blown away if even one of them has ever measured a case length in his entire career.  Like you said, I suspect it's just a filtering system to keep idiots and their little 25s and 32s out of the field.

[Big Nasty]

It just cracks me up how people say you can't kill an elk with anything smaller than a 300 win mag. I can shoot an elk with a bow at 80 yards, but oh don't use a 270. I understand why they do alot of what they do but really come on. These laws just go to show some people have no business in the woods with a weapon of any kind. I am going on a cape buffalo hunt next week, and I will be using my 17 HMR anyone like to go with me. 

[jumpsteady]

The problem now is that I have questioned this to the head of the law enforcement branch of KDWP. I would bet that after the 3 emails, and counting, that something gets said about it.

[Big Nasty]

Go to the next meeting in your area and raise hell. If you would like I would be more than happy to join ya in the effort to make these people look like the idiots that most of them are, notice I said MOST not all. Serious if things aren't happening and you would like help let me know and I will be very happy to go and rattle chains with ya.

[jumpsteady]

So I actually got an answer from the head of the law enforcement at KDWP that I can live with. Here it is.


I was not working for Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks when the 1.280" case length was originally established, but I would assume you are probably correct in your conclusion that the minimum case length was set by the generally established case length for handgun cartridges that were thought sufficient to use for big game hunting. The published standard for a cartridge is what is used to determine if a cartridge is legal for use. As you state, the .357 Magnum, the .44 Rem. Magnum, and others have a published case length that is either meeting or exceeding the regulatory standard.  Because this is published, and therefore generally accepted that the case length for these calibers meets the minimum, they are considered legal to use in Kansas for big game (deer and antelope) hunting. When considering wildcat cartridges, if there is published standard stating the the cartridge case is equal to or exceeding the minimum length established by regulation, then the cartridge would be considered legal.  If there is no published standard for a wildcat cartridge, then the actual measurement of case lengths would come into play.

I hope this give you better insight to this regulation.


SO, as long as you can prove that there is a published standard that states the case length meets or exceeds 1.280", then the cartridge is legal. But, I am going to save all of the emails that I got from KDWP on this subject just in case something happens.

Finally I can rest a little easier.     Jumpsteady