Author Topic: The enemy of good .......... (Read 1508 times)

Evil Dog · « **on:** November 12, 2009, 01:40:26 PM »

Decided that I could improve the wheels a bit on my half scale Napoleon. When looking at wheels for building a new cannon I noticed one place had 5/16" bolts securing the tires as an option. Then when out at the Moorpark event last weekend I saw that most every gun had the tires also bolted in place. So........

The tires on my wheels are held in place with what could best be described as "drive screws"... similar to what could be found in most any hardware store.

Easy enough to remove those screws and replace them with 1/4" bolts.

Now it is just a matter of getting out a can of black paint. Probably more structurally sound and aesthetically improved. No doubt about it, the enemy of good is better.

RocklockI · « **Reply #1 on:** November 12, 2009, 02:14:53 PM »

Thats Great what a saying .....i have a question for you wheel guys . Are these wheels worthey of being bounced around ? Do they get lose or fall apart ? Can they be tightened ?

I know it sounds like a stupid qestion as they were used for centuires in wars But , it could be that there were regular PMs done ? and/ or repairs regular ?

Gary

gary michie · « **Reply #2 on:** November 12, 2009, 05:48:01 PM »

I didn't know that the 1800's cannon wheels came with phillips head bolts, you know grader bolts (you know the ones that hold the cutters on the roadgrader blades) work real nice and come in many sizes.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2009, 05:55:38 PM »

Quote from: gary michie on November 12, 2009, 05:48:01 PM

I didn't know that the 1800's cannon wheels came with phillips head bolts, you know grader bolts (you know the ones that hold the cutters on the roadgrader blades) work real nice and come in many sizes.

Yes, but common ol' Lowe's bolts fit the budget real well. As far as being a phillips head, a little JB Weld should fill that in quite well. Then a little paint and you'd never know.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2009, 07:21:31 PM »

I have at work a Swedging tool I made for making proper tire bolts with the flat head and square to keep them from rotating

it is basically a carriage bolt with a taper and flat head.

I use Carriage bolts heated red hot drop them into the swedging block and hammer in the tappered flat.

the next time I go to work I can do a quick photo tutorial if anyone wants.

M'Lady Carol is getting close to the end of her Journey, so I have been home with her.

Allen <><

Evil Dog · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2009, 07:29:13 PM »

Yes, would be interested in seeing that.

My deepest sympathy to you and your lady...

Zulu · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2009, 04:43:45 AM »

When I made 36" wheels for my split trail gun I set the iron tires around the felloes in the following way.
First I took 3/16" X 2 1/4" iron and rolled it around the assembled wooden wheel. I cut the iron a little long so one end overlapped the other end. Then I welded a small piece of angle to each end about 3" apart and connected them together with a piece of 1/2" allthread. When I tightened the allthread the iron tire squeezed tightly around the wheel. I helped seat all the spokes and felloes by hitting around the perimeter with a mallet. When I thought everything was tight enough I drilled one hole in each felloe and inserted a 3/8" carriage bolt and tightened everything up. Then I installed a felloe splice plate on each side of the wheel and tightened all that up. Now I removed the allthread, cut off the small pieces of angle and ground everything flat. Then cut the iron tire where I had it overlapped to be exactly the right size. A carriage bolt on both sides of the splice finished it off.
So I was able to set an iron tire without heating it and get it plenty tight.
I hope all this made sense.
Zulu

Evil Dog · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2009, 04:54:05 AM »

Wow Zulu... those are some serious looking wheels. Great work !!!

artillerybuff · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2009, 02:24:45 AM »

Quote from: gary michie on November 12, 2009, 05:48:01 PM

I didn't know that the 1800's cannon wheels came with phillips head bolts, you know grader bolts (you know the ones that hold the cutters on the roadgrader blades) work real nice and come in many sizes.

Ditto on the use of phillips head or other non-period fasteners. Not a big fan of farby hardware or designs. I have heard people say what's the difference, still looks like a cannon. I guess you could say the same thing about costume jewelry, to the average eye it looks perfectly fine, but to the trained eye it looks like, well, you know...

If it is a piece meant to be used to recreate history it should be as correct as possible in every detail. If it is a piece to take out and just have fun with, then who cares, anything goes as long as it is safe.

Anthony Variz

artillerybuff · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2009, 02:28:25 AM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 12, 2009, 02:14:53 PM

Thats Great what a saying .....i have a question for you wheel guys . Are these wheels worthey of being bounced around ? Do they get lose or fall apart ? Can they be tightened ?

I know it sounds like a stupid qestion as they were used for centuires in wars But , it could be that there were regular PMs done ? and/ or repairs regular ?

Gary

Great question Gary. Wheel maintenance is a major concern where I live due to the extreme dry desert climate. A brand new set of properly made 57" wheels (i.e. kiln dried white oak) split, crack and shrink something awful in less than one year here. It is truly heartbreaking to see this happen so quickly after spending so much money. Some recommend occasional soaking in a big tub of thinned out linseed oil. Others simply soak their wheels in water when they get loose. Though they will tighten right up, this is a very bad idea as it will promote dry rot and is a very temporary fix at best.

I have been advised by a wheelwright friend of mine that the best long term fix is to keep the joints between the spokes, hubs, and felloes filled with a quality penetrating consolidant. I have used with great success a product called Git-Rot. It is a two part mix that pours in like a thick liquid, fills the joints, and keeps the wheels very tight. I have found that if I do this once a year the wheels will last a very long time. Another good product that is far less expensive is called Rotted Wood Hardener by H. F. Staples & Co. It is ready to use out of the bottle and pours in like milk, soaks deeply into the wood fibers, fills the gaps and cures solid.

Another important consideration is proper storage. When not in use I keep my carriages in a large barn covered and out of the direct sun and rain. The only time my carriages have been wet is when it rains at an event, I never just hose them off with water. Since we live fire our pieces with full spec service loads tight wheels are a must.

I should also state that the above "fix" works far better and last longer if performed before the wheels are actually loose. Keeping the joints filled and tight prevents them from being run loose and ruining the wheels before their time. If the wheels are already loose & sloppy they will probably need to be re-tired or rebuilt.

Another maintenance item is keeping the hubs & axles lubed. At the 135 GB event one of our guys had one of his Parrott wheels seize up from lack of lube when moving the piece from field to field.

Anthony Variz

RocklockI · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2009, 04:32:23 AM »

Werent the hubs pieced together in many individual pieces ? and hollow for lube ?

I see some drawing and posting one one piece hubs .

Gary

Zulu · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2009, 12:12:27 PM »

Gary,
laminated hubs are far stronger than one piece hubs. The ones I made in the wheels above were glued together. One piece hubs are more subject to splitting.

Once they were turned on the lathe i drilled them for an axle.
Zulu

artillerybuff · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2009, 12:34:54 PM »

Yes, a properly made laminate is stronger than a solid piece of wood. This requires reversing the grain direction on every other piece, using quality glue, and high clamping pressure. My carriage building friend has a huge fixture with a long row of 50 ton jacks over it for clamping the trails and wheel hubs.

Anthony Variz

RocklockI · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2009, 01:54:11 PM »

So then ,they are not put together like a barrel with with hoops , I always thought they were held together by iron hoops fitted with very tightly fitting pieces of wood .

Also do they put a lube in the hubs around the axile

?

Gary

subdjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2009, 02:37:05 PM »

Allen, thank you for the update. Do please keep us in the loop. I'll keep the both of you in my prayers.

artillerybuff · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2009, 03:01:24 PM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 14, 2009, 01:54:11 PM

So then ,they are not put together like a barrel with with hoops , I always thought they were held together by iron hoops fitted with very tightly fitting pieces of wood .

Also do they put a lube in the hubs around the axile ?

Gary

The hubs start out as a solid chunk of wood, either one piece or laminated, and lathe turned and bored out in the center to receive a cast iron boxing which is pressed into place. This cast iron boxing (or bronze in some cases) is what rides on the axle. The hub bands are supposed to help strengthen the hub, but in reality do not do much.

Anthony Variz

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2009, 03:11:14 PM »

Allen - our hearts and prayers are with you all.

We're here when you need us.

PaulB · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:22:53 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on November 13, 2009, 04:43:45 AM

When I made 36" wheels for my split trail gun I set the iron tires around the felloes in the following way.
First I took 3/16" X 2 1/4" iron and rolled it around the assembled wooden wheel. I cut the iron a little long so one end overlapped the other end. Then I welded a small piece of angle to each end about 3" apart and connected them together with a piece of 1/2" allthread.

Zulu,
I like this method, one of the difficulties I forsee in mounting the tire, is getting an accuate measurement of the circumfrence of the tire.

Did you build this carriage from a plan?

Zulu · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:56:07 AM »

PaulB,
I built this carriage from a picture in Round Shot and Rammers. I scaled it to my 36" barrel. Rolling flat stock around wooden felloes is a great way to set an iron tire. It works easy up to 3/16" thickness. After that it really needs to be rolled on a roller to the diameter of your wheel because it gets too stiff to work with. Then you can overlap and proceed as directed.
Zulu

BoomLover · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:16:47 PM »

Allen, it is a difficult journey you are on, but God will be guiding both you and your Lady's steps...take care and leave it in His hands.

gary michie · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:24:42 PM »

Hi

Living here in the northwest my problems are a little differant than the down south, new wood swells. I'm a good welder but I have had a hub ring/band brake. After that happened I tried some bands by hammer welding and so far so good. I now use a mix of mineral spirits and linseed oil 50/50 on the hubs as soon as I put the tires on I get sloppy. The spokes get dipped in linseed oil both ends and after the tire is shrank on the hub gets a good wet down. In a couple of days I heat up the hub rings and put them on,lots of smoke, abucket of water and the wheel is ready for boxing. I use a boxing bore. Its a Y shape chuck that holds the wheel to center and a 2hp. c frame motor on the tool post. Depending on the hub I install a milling cutter, most offen a use the 1"x 14" cutter and spin the wheel.

Zulu · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:32:35 AM »

Gary,
Do you put bolts through the iron tire and felloe after you set it? If you do, couldn't you set the tire like I do and leave the splice unwelded? No smoke or burning wood and the iron tire would move with the wheel shrinkage and expansion.
Zulu

artillerybuff · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:34:14 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on November 17, 2009, 02:32:35 AM

Gary,
Do you put bolts through the iron tire and felloe after you set it? If you do, couldn't you set the tire like I do and leave the splice unwelded? No smoke or burning wood and the iron tire would move with the wheel shrinkage and expansion.
Zulu

The traditional way and the way most wheelwrights do it still today is to make the tire (one piece welded ring 1/2" thick for a no. 1 wheel) smaller than wheel, heat & expand it in a hot bed of coals (or very large diameter propane burner) and install it over the wheel & cool for a tight contract around the wheel. Then the bolt holes are drilled.

I have re-tired several sets of wheels with a modern twist. With an older set of wheels there are usually gaps between the spokes, felloe and hub. I start out by cutting a small section from the tire at the existing weld. How much is estimation based upon how much space is available, but start out small at no more than 3/8" as I can always come back and grind a little more out. Next is to remove all the bolts and the tire, carefully inspect the wheel for broken or rotted parts and replace or repair as needed. Then a good soaking in 50/50 linseed oil.

Then weld all the existing bolt holes in the tire closed and grind smooth, grind a generous bevel on the edges, and weld on two 2" square blocks on each side of the tire opening. I then reinstalled the tire and with a very long 5/8" diameter bolt through the blocks and draw the tire closed. It takes several hundred lbs. of torque to butt up the ends. If necessary, further metal removal may be needed to acquire the desired tightness. Once everything is in place and as tight as I want it to be I start welding one pass at a time keeping the wood cooled down in-between. If you are careful wood burning will be minimal. Once the welding is totally finished I grind off the blocks and start drilling holes from the felloe out using the original holes as a guide. The tire must be a solid ring, the bolts alone would not hold the wheel together if the tire was left open. In fact, on a tight wheel the bolts serve no purpose, the tire is too tight to move, and that is how you want it...

Anthony Variz

dan610324 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2009, 12:25:50 PM »

but how about wheels of an earlier date ??
many of those wheels had the steel tire split in as many pieces as the felloes
the split was on the middle of the felloe
then they used a steel band there to keep the tire ends in place
on the middle of the steel tire you had the split between the felloes and there you got another steel band
sometimes that band hold only the felloes and not the tire
but in all wheels of this type that I have seen the tires are heavily nailed to the felloes

how is such an wheel compared to a welded shrink fit tire wheel ??
of course not as good , but how large is the difference in quality ??
anyone who got any experiance from such wheels ??

gary michie · « **Reply #24 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:24:41 PM »

HI:

I have seen pics. of Whitworth and Armstrongs with split tires and drawings of older french and spanish guns with the same.
The south during the civil war got rid of the british carriage fast and instaled the gun on a new carriage for the reason I think---- Flying Artillery--csa--- and Light artillery---us--. We the US, during the Mexican war put more horses on the 6 poundres and MOVED fast. the old wheels could not take the cornors and bad roads if you could find a road.

I too feel that a wheel must have the tire on very tight.If you plan your moves and dry run the job a few times the miss haps will be few.Just be sure to have a water hose there running ful blast.
For the ones of you that want to make wheels for only to be looked at wheel shrinkage and expansion is ok but a working wheel must be tight a loose wheele will tare it's self apart.

where is the spell checker?

?