Author Topic: recoil : sufficient to cause swelling , pain, etc. (Read 2640 times)

kennisondan · « **on:** August 24, 2007, 04:03:40 PM »

with the big bores like the 475, would you guys who are older like me chime in and tell me if you have experienced enough recoil to cause pain or swelling in the elbows or wrists ?
I would appreciate your input.
having trouble with arthritic changes in wrist and elbow about now and am curious as to others experience.
dk
I will be loading it down any way for my uses but saw a few comments about damage or injury to wrists and elbows and could nto find them again.,.
so :::
dk

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2007, 05:26:49 PM »

With my 454 I've shot enough heavy loads a couple of times to come home with a sore hand but no real pain or swelling in the wrist or elbow. I've since reconsidered that practice and decided that's for you younger set.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2007, 07:42:52 PM »

In 1990 after more than a decade of very serious handgun metallic silhouette competition using 7 mm-08's .30-30's 7mm TCU's and full charge .44 mags, frequently shot one handed from the Creedmoor position, I developed a more or less permanent condition of " Magnum Elbow" and shoulder pains, caused by recoil to the palm. I sought out a local Orthopedic specialist, and had 3 cortisone shots to the elbow over the course of a year, and cut way back on my competitive shooting, which eventually solved the problem.
I emphasize this was not caused by occasional shooting, but by shooting perhaps 3-400 heavy rounds per week, every week. Today and for years, I have no problem with more moderate quantities of 2 handed shooting. I recommend wearing a shooting glove to protect the nerves in your palm. I also wear a "tennis elbow" strap if I expect to do any really serious extended shooting. Recoil can indeed cause damage, and it pays to be prudent. But with care and protection, you can shoot a bunch...and shooting a bunch is the only way to master the handgun.

swampthing · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2007, 03:03:20 AM »

One thing that can help immensely is modifying your hold/technique. Check out www.youtube for Limbaughs one hand shooting of his .475 He uses his arm as a piston to slow the recoil, not fight it. this allows the recoil to send his whole forearm past his nose to the inside in one big exaggerated motion to "pillow" the recoil. You may not shoot moa. but you won't destroy your tendons and cartilidge either.
Also "Stretching Out" the elbows, wrists, forearms, will all but cure tendinitis. Research "how" to stretch the muscles and you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

doghawg · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2007, 03:35:21 AM »

I've got a few big-bore BFR's and the Mod 83 .454 and have found one thing that works in all of them. I work up a warm heavy bullet load that is accurate and meets the need for a hunting load. Then the tinkering with reduced loads starts, usually a lighter bullet with a faster powder, until a good load is found that shoots to the same POI as the "heavy".

If I'm overcome by the rotten urge to light off 40 to 50 rounds of .475 or .500 it'll be with the wimp loads followed by a cylinder full of the hotter stuff.

Also....I'm not a snake oil advocate by any means but am convinced that taking glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM tablets and also fish oil caps IS slowing and possibly reversing the arthritus in my hands and wrists. I'll be 60 this fall and have abused my hands for years with both work and play. Things have improved to the point that the next FA will most likely be a 6" .475!

kennisondan · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:17:46 AM »

at 53 plus I have some really bad gout and arthritic problems, where inflammation in one place seems to precipitate it in others, like knee hurts then ankle then .. went out and shot just a few lighter loads and then a few heavy loads, and swung a machete for five to six hours and the right elbow and forearm got stiff and sore, then froze into a ninety degree angle, for several days.. cortisone shot = no help; dosepak of cortizone is working.. I cannot reach my mouth for beer or eating and cannot reach below my belt and can only shoot from the hip... the first time it happened I had hit something with the elbow and two days later it got this way..it does not take much to swell up my joints, just a few hours on uneven ground, too much weight carried, etc. also repetitive motions... when the doctor drained it he found blood in it meaning trauma..but had none but the cutting and shooting... it was impressive recoil in the full house loads but not too bad - i have shot 44 and 35 remington for years ... it was certainly more than those. I am happy with the reasonable loads I just had to know what a benchmark full house load felt like..
I too take flax seed oil and I am sure it took the place of anti-inflammatory drugs I was taking before, cause if I stop them I get symptoms faster..same as the antis ..I got a Past shooting glove again, and will look at the video as well.. I was using a two hand very tight grip and have strong hands and big fingers...it rocked my whole body some and shoulders as well : according to an observer.

kennisondan · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:21:53 AM »

forgot to add : I intend to shoot a bunch, a lot... as much as possible and affordable... I used to do that ... hundreds and hundreds of downloaded 44 a week .. and got pretty good at it ... I want to get to there again.
thanks for the responses...
anyone else got any experience with it..
how about the hligh hold verus the lower hold on the FA handle..
any difference as far as injury prevention, etc.

dk

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2007, 10:13:43 AM »

Single actions pretty much all share one design feature introduced in the Colt SAA and that is how they deal with recoil. They are designed to roll or slide thru your hand as the barrel climbs skyward and the butt slips in your hand.

What that means is if you use a grip that's too loose (like me) then they will roll right on up and that hammer will eat your hand up. I mean it will chew and gnaw until your hand is a bloody pulp. Yes that is the voice of experience speaking.

I learned with S&W DA revolvers primarily and they are what I still prefer. I can deal with far more recoil in a DA revolver than in a SA. Loads that draw blood from me in an FA83 are easily handled in a Taurus RB or Ruger SRH.

To me that's the first concern when using a SA like you have now. But there are other concerns brought on by arthritis which I have badly. With any heavy kicker never ever put those elbows down on a bare table top no matter what it's made of. I use loosely filled sandbags for that mostly. Never ever get your pinky finger underneath that grip and get it too close to the table or any solid surface. But all those apply to any SA over a .357 mag recoil level really.

The arthritis is really bad in my hands and yeah a long session with heavy kickers for sure works on them and by the end of a day some times I can no longer even hold the gun in my hand tightly enough to keep from dropping it. The older I get the less it takes to put me in that shape. It's a very real concern and only you can determine thru experimentation how much is too much for you. For me it comes a LOT faster with a SA than a DA.

Some for instances for me: A Ruger BH or SBH even in .41 mag with full house mag loads is almost impossible to hold in my hands and keep from coming out or cutting me. A Bisley gripped SBH at about 1250 fps with 300s is almost impossible to hold onto and after a short session I'll either lose it or be bleeding. The FA83 I can deal with up to the heavy stuff like Buffalo Bore or COR-BONs to 300 grains but those heavier ones of theirs are going to bring blood. The FA83 unlike the Ruger with either grip doesn't jump from my hands but when the bullet weight is over 325 grains and velocity is up around 1600 fps or with much of any weight over 340s in a .454 Casull at full power level I'm gonna bleed sooner or later.

Recoil at those levels hurts my arthritis badly and quickly. Trying to maintain a grip tight enough to keep from bleeding brings it on faster. My trigger finger on both hands but especially so on the right hand hurts almost 24 hours most days. I'm on two different pain meds to control the arthritis pain but at times the joint where the trigger finger joins my hand hurts so badly I can barely do anything but moan in agony and shooting is impossible. So yeah arthritis is definitely a concern and the heavier the recoil the more of a concern you'll find it is especially when it progresses to the level mine has.

Rod in Pa · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26, 2007, 06:48:05 AM »

Kennisondan, To keep a long story short.. I have owned many different 44 mag handguns. I decided to move up on the power scale and purchased a Freedom Arms Model 83 475 Linebaugh with a factory magnaport 7 1/2 " bbl. I shot factory hornady 400 gr shells and it was my dream hunting handgun. That was until I had rotocuff surgery. After the operation I was no longer able to handle the recoil of the 475 Linebaugh. I sold that handgun and purchased the exact model in a 44 mag and never looked back. I hope this helps. Rod in Pa.

swampthing · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26, 2007, 02:33:20 PM »

If you have reached a point were you are swelling, bleeding, stiffening, or just giving out a good old fashioned screaming every time you shoot, I hate to say it, it's time to face facts, thats your body telling you something is wrong.
Is there something your hunting that can't be taken with a 350g slug @8-900fps from a .475L? Is there a piece of target paper that needs 400g in order to penetrate? You will never recover from these ailments if you think "no pain no gain" {Scwartzenager did not say work through pain, but recover first}
I would not sell or quit shooting, but I would back way off on intesity of the loads. IMR trail-boss and lighter weight slugs are the prescription. I would like to be able to eat and go to toilet with my own hands, not by some degenerate that was just popping zits and putting in there "body jewelry" before they came to help me.

wickerbill · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2007, 03:25:59 PM »

Dan
Have you ever seen a Rumatologist. It sounds to me like there is something going on here besides ostio arthritis. When I have a flair up in my shoulder or knee, I get a shot of quortizone in the joint and I'm good for about three month.Ostio is easy to treat, runtoid is not. Maybe Marsh didn't do you any favor selling you that 475L.
Bill

MarkH · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2007, 02:09:31 AM »

I've had no trouble shooting large quantities of 454 Casull - no pain or stiffness at all - but heavier bullets do get to me and are shot in moderation.

In fact, I find that my hands stiffen up if I DON'T get in some regular shooting.

I shoot with a low grip on the 83 and find it works best for me. There is no good answer to this as it depends on your own hands.

kennisondan · « **Reply #12 on:** August 29, 2007, 03:44:40 PM »

Thanks to all. got osteo arthritis and some gout gone wild, and we are thining that it is really likely that I have a bit of psoriatic arthritis, masked by the others... lots of joint problems from the allergic reactions too... we will find out though...
I will keep the loads down low as it will be ok... the thing that is aggravating is that I cannot do other things like that day I used a machete for four hours first then held the gun super tight for the first five rounds and was rather stiff, then loosened my stance and grip some to something I can do over and over, the muscles were already tensed and over wrought... and the blood they drained out before the cortizone went in was a puzzlement.
I will just keep the loads down cause I intend to shoot a lot... that is the only way I will get as good as i once was and want to be again... but when it hurts to do something, I am finally getting around to stopping... It is most difficult for me to not do the chopping and physical work that I can really not do any more.... I will be able to do the shooting at some recoil level I am sure, and I appreciate the experience and advice here...
myh little load of 7.8 gr. Unique and a 420gr. performance cast gas check probably is only travelling 45 acp speed but it is impressive when it hits, I may inch up a little but stay under or at ten grains recoil permitting...
I quit cutting with a machete though... that is for sure.... even at low fps and light weight it is obviously bad for my body.
dk

Sniper7472003 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2007, 03:03:45 PM »

And I thought I was just a wimp. I'm in my early sixties, with a very large stout frame.I never had any problems with recoil until I started using 320gr to 350gr .452 cast bullets in .45 Colt cal..at about 1200 to 1300 plus FPS.Shooting was done in the very fine ruger bisley and stainless bisley from Accusports.One day I fired over 150 rounds at max loading over sand bags,with bags under elbows also. That night I started having pain and a numbing feeling in back of neck which was bad enough that I could not sleep at all.The pain kept up for over 2 weeks and going down into shoulder and into my arm and fingers.After about 2 months all the pain went away except for the numbing in the tips of my fingers.I think I have some nerve damage because its been about 1 year now and the numbing is still there.I only shoot mild loads now but still love to shoot.But I love those single action Rugers.

kennisondan · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2007, 04:31:49 PM »

sniper : had an MRI just today for the elbow and hopefully to diagnose my other joint problems... I will be keeping it light for my six guns also.. but will continue to shoot the little rascal... that is for sure... do you use a straight elbow or slightly bent ? I had my arm straight out after usign a machete a few hours first... but I will figure this out... I love those handguns... too.
'the problem you describe sounds like a combination of the position you were in and either comes from the elbows or the neck area, it seems... I know I will stretch out prior to doing a lot more stuff after my recent painful experiences.
I have heard a few tales of permanent nerve and joint problems in the arms etc. from a few folks....
probalby making dormant problems go active on us, but who knows. If I just need to shoot em light, I can handle that too.
thanks for sharing..do your frequent the sniper forums : paradise or the hide..?
dk

swampthing · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2007, 02:21:21 AM »

Take a look a Linebaughs web sight, he has an interesting method of "holding on" to his revolver. www.customsixguns just press the play button on his movie clip.

kennisondan · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2007, 05:15:57 AM »

I was wondering how exactly he did that ... would like to see his stance and elbow position and see whether he sets it up where that is the onnly direction and place it can go.. or what ...
Fowler had some comments on it ... he has had a bit of discourse with Dustin recently ..
I can see a few divots in my forehead from trying to duplicate that feat..LOL
dk

Dee · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2007, 07:29:30 AM »

Darn right I experience swelling and pain in my hand, wrist, and fingers,when shooting heavy recoiling pistols. Solutions? I don't shoot them anymore. After years of shooting thousands of hot loaded 357mag, and 44 mag rounds, I am at age 57, paying the price. One can only imagine the damage these newer, bigger, hotter pistol cartridges are doing to this generation of shooters.

kennisondan · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2007, 03:36:22 PM »

think it is the recoil dee ? not just a stroke of bad luck, or something that would occurr anyway..
dk

kennisondan · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2007, 04:51:24 PM »

torn extensor tendon, two spurs in the elbow.. got a strap to ease the tension on the tendon and it is helping some, it seems... shot the 475 this weekend.. and did not have any pain from the 7.8gr. of unique behind 420gr. cast bullets at all... I will stick with that for now...
there is some numbness and stuff in the arm and hand but I was not told it would get worse unless I did repetetive movements to excess... I will try to use the hand only for the most important stuff : shooting...
If It does not get better I will have surgery after the hunting season..
the other joints are still wanting attention..
but I do not shoot with them..
dk

Groo · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2009, 03:05:29 PM »

Groo here
I have or have shot 357,41,44,45,454,309jdj,350mag,411jdj,45-70,500 S#W, 50AK[700gr],
and found that most of us hold our guns way to tight..
Look at some of your wives or children - they seem to shoot big guns with little or no problem but the
same loads will "rock our world".
It is they are smaller and GIVE more.
I would suggest that you all try this--- In looking at the old Keith[hats off please]
photos that he does not hold his guns hard, but allows the gun to kick to the point of coming out of the
support or off hand .. The only times I have had much problem is when I try to overpower the gun[Combat
Style]. but when I just shoot the out come is much better..

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2009, 05:32:39 PM »

That's one reason me and heavy recoiling single actions don't mesh well. I have such a loose grip when shooting that a heavy recoil single action hammer actually cuts my right hand often. It's just my natural grip and if I don't change it for heavy loads in .454 and above I bleed.