1st round - pointed bullet in 30-30 tubular magazine?

[stimpylu32]

Play nice or don't play you 2

Stimpy

[Casull]

Keeping it civil.   

[mcwoodduck]

With a pointed bullet.
Let's say the bullet lined up perfectly with the primer in front and the pointed bullet is pointed enough to dent the primer and is seated into the caes so it will not give. So a FMJ bullet. 
Even with a light little trapper carbine.
Is the recoil of a 30-30 enough in foot pounds to apply enough pressure to dent a primer to set it off?
I guess my question is:  What is the minimum force needed to set off a rifle primer?
and will the 30-30 achieve that with even the lightest of lever action rifles?
I guess the same could be asked of 35 Remington, 375 Win, and the 307 Win. (I would say 444 marlin and 45-70 but I do not know of any pointed bullets made for either.  Even the pointed 458 rounds I have seen have a big blunt lead point about as round as the primer.)
If the recoil of the 30-30 is not enough in force to ignite the primer it would be safe to fire pointed bullets.
If it is able to generate the force needed then pointed bullets would not be safe to fire with more than one round in the mag.
Dee please do not take this as anything other than a math question.  I like the 30-30 and while I limit the range to 150 yards it is more about my shooting with the open sights and being able to hit what I am aiming at with my 30-30. (a T/C 14" Pistol)  If 308 win is about 300 -400 FPS faster than 30-30 and it is used to shoot 1,000 yards.   30-30 can easily reach 1/2 that if not more.

[Casull]

Mcwoodduck, the 308 is about 500 fps faster, and even though it is used for targets at 1000 yards, it would be lucky to hunt with it at half that distance.

[mcwoodduck]

I have friends that do the 600 meter (=650 yards) shoots with M1A's on a regular basis.  Some do it with the little 223 out of thier AR's. and other shoot the 600 Meter matches wit hthe old war horse the M1 Garand.
They are not getting minute of angle at the 600 yards but 8" groups are normal from the prone.
I drove .3 miles from the pump house  (5280 feet in a mile X.3 = 1,584 feet.  1584/3 feet = 528 yards) on the farm and played with the sights on my 1896 Mauser, setting them to 500 Yards and shot it at the grocery bag I stapled on top of a saw horse in front of what was left of the pump house.  Out of 10 rounds I was able to make a couple hits on the paper grocery bag.  By the way this 1896 Mauser was a Bolo in 9mm.  Yes a Pistol.  With the settings of my 1896 rifle at 500 yards with the 6.5X55 sweed I was able to make more hits using the front of hood of the Jeep as a rest on your standard paper grocery sack.  We would staple them to a saw horse to give a 3D target about the size of a deer and put 2L soda bottles inside to simulate the heart lung hits.  It was an easy way to teach friends that did not hunt how to shoot deer.

[Casull]

Mcwoodduck, as I said, I know that targets can be hit at those distances, but that doesn't mean it makes a hunting round at those ranges.

[mcwoodduck]

Agreed.
I tend to follow the 1,000 foot pound for Deer, Pig, and black bear at the distance the animal is from me, as a rule
and the 2,000 for larger animals (elk, moose, brown bear).
Now will I shoot a deer with 750 foot pounds and a heavy for caliber bullet at distance-  Yep! 
This same rule is what makes the 30 Carbine marginal for Deer.  It will not break the 1,000 Foot pounds mark.  But it and the 22 Hornet will Kill deer if hit right.  The little Hornet start out with 723 foot pounds for a 45 grain bullet.  At 100 yards it drops to 417 but I have seen swamp deer in NC drop in their tracks to a 22 Hornet with a chest hit.  like hit with lightning dead!
Getting back to the 30-30
The 150 grain 30-30 will carries that magic 1,000 foot pounds to 200 yards (858 to 989 Foot pounds)  At 500 yards it is still has 425 foot pounds of energy and that is about what a 45 ACP/ 45 Colt has with a 230 grain bullet at the muzzle or what the 22 hornet has with a bullet 3X the weight and 1.375 X the diameter.
Even the 44 Mag only carries 699 with a 270 grain bullet to the 100 yard mark.
The 180 and 240's are only in the mid 500's  (551 & 543 to be exact)
even right out of the tube they are
180= 1036 foot pounds
240=  741
and the big boy 275 is 931.  And everyone says a 44 revolver is fine for game as big as elk, moose, and brown bear.
The 30-30 starts with almost 2,000 foot pounds or twice the energy of a 44mag.
The 454 Casull will carry 1,187 foot pounds with a 300 grain bullet out to 100 yards.
Now with my 6.5X55 it will easily carry the 1,000 foot pounds with the 140 grain bullet to the 500 Yard mark so at .3 of a mile my 6.5X55 sweed is still a deer gun.
The 165 grain bullets I shoot out of my 308 (while I max my shots to 350 with my M700V on game) will still carry up to 1200 foot pounds out to 500 yards. and at 1" groups at 100 yards on a bad day that expands out to 5 to 6 inch groups at 500 yards still with in the kill zone of a deer aiming for a lung shot.
All of my numbers came off of the Remington Website. (except the 6.5X55 I used the 260 Rem as they are the same ballistics different case) And all 30-30 info is with round nose bullets.  Pointed bullets will carry more speed at given distances increasing the Foot pounds for that distance.

[epanzella]

With a pointed bullet.
Let's say the bullet lined up perfectly with the primer in front and the pointed bullet is pointed enough to dent the primer and is seated into the caes so it will not give. So a FMJ bullet. 
Even with a light little trapper carbine.
Is the recoil of a 30-30 enough in foot pounds to apply enough pressure to dent a primer to set it off?
I guess my question is:  What is the minimum force needed to set off a rifle primer?
and will the 30-30 achieve that with even the lightest of lever action rifles?
I guess the same could be asked of 35 Remington, 375 Win, and the 307 Win. (I would say 444 marlin and 45-70 but I do not know of any pointed bullets made for either.  Even the pointed 458 rounds I have seen have a big blunt lead point about as round as the primer.)
If the recoil of the 30-30 is not enough in force to ignite the primer it would be safe to fire pointed bullets.
If it is able to generate the force needed then pointed bullets would not be safe to fire with more than one round in the mag.
Dee please do not take this as anything other than a math question.  I like the 30-30 and while I limit the range to 150 yards it is more about my shooting with the open sights and being able to hit what I am aiming at with my 30-30. (a T/C 14" Pistol)  If 308 win is about 300 -400 FPS faster than 30-30 and it is used to shoot 1,000 yards.   30-30 can easily reach 1/2 that if not more.

Recoil is only part of the story. Dropping the gun on the buttstock is the rest of the story.

[mcwoodduck]

I figured you would have more force from recoil than dropped.
And thought if you did drop it from a height that would allow enough force to set off a primer that would be other damage to the gun other than a ruptured mag tube, mising spring and fore arm.
But it may not take that much force.
I once dropped a 5 pound sledge hammer on a 209 shot gun primer.
It dented it.  Nothing else.
So I then wanted to see what was needed to set off the primer.  I was about 14.  So this may sound pretty dumb.
I went to a step outside the garage and put the primer on the lower step and stood on the upper step and dropped the hammer again.
this time with the primer aimed up.   figuring it would set it off.  I was on the upper step cause I did not think it would send a 5 pound hammer up to me but was worried about the primer tossing scrap from it latteral and wanted to be above it.
Finally I was using a step ladder and dropping the hammer.
and ended up, all with the same primer, hitting the primer with the hammer in a full swing.  That finally set it off.
I think there is a lot more to setting off a primer than most think.
The spring on a Mauser is pretty strong and some of the Shotgun primers hurt when you accidentally get your finger in the way when fixing old side locks.  ( had hold of the action and was refitting the lock into the reciever with my thumb over the firing pin hole when I tripped the sear.  Hammer at a glancing blow hit the firing pin and OUCH!)

[454Puma]

Land_Owner
 I do it, one in the Chamber, one in the Mag. I use Speer 130 gr HP for yote hunting. The bullets wouldn't shoot good enough for me in my '06. They are very accurate in my Marlin 336. I get 1/2" to 3/4" groups at 100 yards  and it was good enough to wack a yote at 200+/- yards.  He was DRT! I'm running them at 2183 FPS over a charge of 32.5 gr Varget!

[preventec47]

I cant believe no one has mentioned trajectory and retained energy.  What pointy bullets
do to the 30.30 is give you an extra 75 yards of accurate effective range.
The retained velocity is higher and the amount of bullet drop is much less.

To the original poster, I like the two bullet approach and I would suggest
looking into the use of heavy  boattail varmint bullets as they are not going
to explode at the slower velocities of 30.30  but your rifle will now be a
legitimate 250 yard weapon instead of a 150 yard weapon.   No just lethality
I am talking about but also you being able to hit something with the better
trajectory.  You can have a much better
BC with a 30 cal ballistic tip boattail than the levevolution.

Pointy bullets give you extra RANGE and allow shots you normally
would have to or should pass up.

[Dezynco]

I'm with Dee - a couple of gazillion 30-30 shooters can't be wrong!

The pointy bullet idea in a 30-30 lever action is, in my opinion, a waste of time and good money.  I have a very fine Winchester 94 that I treasure greatly, but I don't feel that the gun itself is capable of putting the extra few FPS's to good use.

Now on the other hand, I have a couple of 30-30 barrels for my Contender that CAN put the extra speed and trajectory to good use because they are scoped, heavy barreled, and the gun has a very crisp "target" trigger.  I can make the old 30-30 sneak up on low-end 308 performance, but only with careful handloads.  I'm certainly not knocking any leverguns, it's just that they were intended for flat-pointed bullets out to 150 yards or so, and they do that job VERY well.

I'm a big fan of the good old 30-30, and I feel that it's more rifle than most folks need.  That's why it has been around for so danged long.

[kevinsmith5]

My longest shot on a whitetail is 254 yards. 30-30 Model 94. Remington 170 gr Core-Lokt, DRT.   It was the longest clear shot I've ever had at a whitetail and it did the job.

[Steve P]

The 165 Nosler BT out of a .30-30 is awesome.  They work in my Savage 340 bolt action and in my old Win.94 loaded 2 at a time.  I am lucky with the Win, it has one more round than my Contender!

Try it, you will not be disappointed.

Steve

[Halwg]

It's funny.  This same "pointy bullet in the mag tube detonation or not" post is going on on the Marlin Owners forum.  I put in my 2 cents over there.