Video: .38 Special revolver stopping power

[Mikey]

Hammerhead:  nope, you're right - Jurras tried developing that load but it went nowhere as it was more frangible and less reliable than even the roundnose lead slug.  

Now let me tell you something - lead round nose bullets do not 'bounce' off anyone's skull, they glance off when the skull is moved away from impact at the point of impact.  If the skull did not move on impact - like a glancing blow from a fist that glances because the target is moved by the impact - the damage would be much greater.  You can see this effect for yourself by trying to hit, and pop, small balloons - they will dance away from the 'impact' without being busted.  Same with skulls.  Or, you can try hanging a sheet of paper, just hang it with a clothespin, and try and shoot through it and watch it move with every shot.

Elmer Keith discovered this with animals when he used soft nosed slugs on cattle and bear - the soft nose would deform and 'skid' or glance off the skull.  A lot of people take the opportunity to whizz on bullet designers like Elmer Keith, because of course hunting bullets have little to do with police work and that kind of stuff and gawd forbid any new york city cop ever develops the intestinal fortitude to roll his own loads and try to use them however, it didn't take the fbi long to realize that his sharp shouldered, flat nosed lead slugs (swc) has a much greater effect than a round nose slug where straight on penetrability is required.  

I liked the SuperVel ammo when it first came out until I realized I could handload the same round and then its novelty wore off; same with cor-bon.  I think I still have a box empty SuperVel brass hanging around somewhere.  Lee Jurras went the lightweight expanding bullet route specifically because guys like cirillo thought that was what was needed yet they both ignored the findings by older long time hunters like Keith that hard cast semi-wadcutters hit hard and penetrate straight through.  Maybe cirillo was one of the first to consider liability concerns when involved in police shootouts but I kinda doubt it.  I think he was just having the same kind of difficulties with his soft lead rn ammo that other police departments found before ammo companies starting selling lead swc loads.  

What is the fbi 38 load - a 158 gn swc or swc-hp?  None the less, not even the fbi can show those nyc guys anything ya know.  jmtcw.

[HAMMERHEAD]

lead round nose bullets do not 'bounce' off anyone's skull, they glance off when the skull is moved away from impact at the point of impact.

You are exactly right, poor wording on my part.
I'm not advocating high speed, light weight bullets, the 158 LSWC-HP is my choice, just pointing out that the wrong .38 load (LRN) can be pretty anemic. Also I think the history aspect is interesting. Cirillo and Jurras may not have had it just right, but they were pioneers in the field.

What is the fbi 38 load - a 158 gn swc or swc-hp?

LSWC-HP.
Winchester and Remington still make it.

[SHOOTALL]

I still like it !

[Dee]

Well gentlemen in regards to ricochets from the 38, I will state that during my numerous schools as an instructor that I was required to attend, and this very topic was covered MANY TIMES.
A bullet WILL IN FACT change directions if not of the proper configuration. If glancing off the skull a round nose will glance off REGARDLESS of whether the skull moves or not. It has nothing to bite into, as will also a 230 grain ball round from a 45acp.
The movement of an almost weightless balloon is not a good comparison to a human head that weighs eight pounds or more, and is attached to the body by the neck.
I have personally seen the latter happen in an actual shooting involving a stolen 1978 Buick in 1978. An officer put two rounds into the windshield head on, and neither round penetrated but instead glanced off, or ricocheted if you prefer. The bullets had not bite to them or, shoulders if you will, to dig into the glass, and simply changed directions.
It is indeed all about "bullet configuration" and can be demonstrated easily with a bowling pin, and a short interview with anyone whom has ever competed in the bowling pin shoots. A round nose will glance off the pin, and though probably knocking it down or moving it slightly, transferring little energy to the pin, where as a flat nose such as a waddcutter or semi-wadcutter, or a FLAT NOSE will BITE into the pin if it is hit on the side, and SPIN the pin, rather than glance off transferring much more of it's energy to the pin.
It is the same principle with the human head.
Now, I have basically I think, concurred with much of what Mikey has said, with a twist to the head shot. I have seen the head shot NUMEROUS TIMES, for real, and bullet configuration is very important as Mikey said, unless it is a dead on shot.
Another principle many do not know is that a 9mm ball round will many times OUT PENTETRATE a 357 magnum, and in the old days of bullet proof vests, they were feared more. Why? Bullet configuration! The 9mm had a sharper nose, and delivered more of it's energy in a smaller area than the wider faced 357 mag. That's why the 357 sig, which is not a 357 at all (was dubbed so for advertising), can never out perform consistently the 357 mag. It's hollow point design is totally reliant on available body liquids and their hydraulics. One does not have to agree, but balistiticians whom are not selling guns, but testifying in court rooms will say this. I ain't smart, I just listened when trained.
So Mikey, for the most part I am agreeing with you, with a slight twist.

[Mikey]

Dee:  you are correct - a balloon is a poor comparison to the human head, unless you're talkin' 'bout airheads, maybe, but you are correct. 

You are also correct about the comparison between 9mm ball and the 357 with body armor and the configuration of bullets, which is why 9mm ball is still a threat to body armor. And let's not forget arrows - which penetrate body armor cleanly. 

I like your twist.  Thanks.

[mechanic]

One of my cop friends said one of his fears is a 22 handgun in the hands of a 15 yr. old.  The boy thinks he is 10' tall and bulletproof, and  the 22 will penetrate armor.  Where he might not hesitate to shoot a man in defense of his life, what about a boy?

[SHOOTALL]

When a boy acts like a criminal he get treated like one !
 Is called cleaning the gene pool .

[Merle]

lead round nose bullets do not 'bounce' off anyone's skull, they glance off when the skull is moved away from impact at the point of impact.

You are exactly right, poor wording on my part.
I'm not advocating high speed, light weight bullets, the 158 LSWC-HP is my choice, just pointing out that the wrong .38 load (LRN) can be pretty anemic. Also I think the history aspect is interesting. Cirillo and Jurras may not have had it just right, but they were pioneers in the field.

What is the fbi 38 load - a 158 gn swc or swc-hp?

LSWC-HP.
Winchester and Remington still make it.

Assuming that all of the reports I have seen are correct, the RP load is to be preferred over the WW load in a 2" barrel.
It seems as if the RP lead alloy is softer, and far more likely to expand. These same sources also claim that in 3" or longer barrels that either one will work well.

 

[Merle]

Well gentlemen in regards to ricochets from the 38, I will state that during my numerous schools as an instructor that I was required to attend, and this very topic was covered MANY TIMES.
A bullet WILL IN FACT change directions if not of the proper configuration. If glancing off the skull a round nose will glance off REGARDLESS of whether the skull moves or not. It has nothing to bite into, as will also a 230 grain ball round from a 45acp.
The movement of an almost weightless balloon is not a good comparison to a human head that weighs eight pounds or more, and is attached to the body by the neck.
I have personally seen the latter happen in an actual shooting involving a stolen 1978 Buick in 1978. An officer put two rounds into the windshield head on, and neither round penetrated but instead glanced off, or ricocheted if you prefer. The bullets had not bite to them or, shoulders if you will, to dig into the glass, and simply changed directions.
It is indeed all about "bullet configuration" and can be demonstrated easily with a bowling pin, and a short interview with anyone whom has ever competed in the bowling pin shoots. A round nose will glance off the pin, and though probably knocking it down or moving it slightly, transferring little energy to the pin, where as a flat nose such as a waddcutter or semi-wadcutter, or a FLAT NOSE will BITE into the pin if it is hit on the side, and SPIN the pin, rather than glance off transferring much more of it's energy to the pin.
It is the same principle with the human head.
Now, I have basically I think, concurred with much of what Mikey has said, with a twist to the head shot. I have seen the head shot NUMEROUS TIMES, for real, and bullet configuration is very important as Mikey said, unless it is a dead on shot.
Another principle many do not know is that a 9mm ball round will many times OUT PENTETRATE a 357 magnum, and in the old days of bullet proof vests, they were feared more. Why? Bullet configuration! The 9mm had a sharper nose, and delivered more of it's energy in a smaller area than the wider faced 357 mag. That's why the 357 sig, which is not a 357 at all (was dubbed so for advertising), can never out perform consistently the 357 mag. It's hollow point design is totally reliant on available body liquids and their hydraulics. One does not have to agree, but balistiticians whom are not selling guns, but testifying in court rooms will say this. I ain't smart, I just listened when trained.
So Mikey, for the most part I am agreeing with you, with a slight twist.

I seem to recall that many of the oldtimers prefered a 38 Super over the 9mm Luger for use againt the old time bullet proof vests & heavy duty car bodies. I think it had to do with ammo availibility as well as performance. Does anybody else remember this?

 

[Mikey]

Merle:  Yep.

[HAMMERHEAD]

I seem to recall that many of the oldtimers prefered a 38 Super over the 9mm Luger for use againt the old time bullet proof vests & heavy duty car bodies. I think it had to do with ammo availibility as well as performance. Does anybody else remember this?

IIRC, the .38 Super was preferred to the .45acp as well for penetrating hard surfaces. The 130 grain round nose was moving considerably faster, and it's pointy profile punched through a little better.

My two favorite rounds, the .38 Special and Super.