what is a just war?

[Oldshooter]

I like the big monkey avatar better. At least when you posted bs like like "WE" posted the Jews there to keep the muslims in turmoil I could take it better! That may be the biggest load of El torro DO DO I have seen posted and I dont care where you heard it. The Bible says that the Jews where God's chosen people and HE sent them there.  Read that sometime! The Jews were going back there before the War started and only because they would not quit, after the war, did the Allies agree to let them have a state there. They were dieing and fighting to return there. oh and news flash they weren't gonna stop anyway! that's my perception, and my reality.

You cannot stop legal immigration into this country, Its how it was born and it continues, I'm wondering who's gonna  decide who cant come and who can, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, agnostics, Democrats or Republicans or even maybe Libertarians. Some here live in fantasy land. What I have said throughout this thread is that there are People(muslims) in the middle east that mean to destroy this country, heck there are people born here that hate it and seem to be destroying it.  Maybe we will self destruct so you isolationist will get your dream come true. I say take the war to them and  make it stick! The people that are not our enemies but maybe just dont like us will understand then from whence we come, and even if they do not like us they will then respect the fact that we will not countenance any  aggression again!

[BBF]

  Dee;
  The Israelis have been "home" for a generation and that land is again a  "land of milk and honey"..and that's prophecy at work !

I think  a very very large amount of US Dollars handed over without so much as a "By your leave" from taxpayers had something to do with that.

[rio grande]

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
 support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.  JFK

Except for the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, where Kennedy backed down and left the anti-Castro Cubans to the reds tender mercies.

[teamnelson]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think ...

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD266809

[rio grande]

If Muslims seriously posed a threat to the United States, in North America, I would join TeamNelson (and maybe some of you other guys) on the front lines.  I have no problem with that. I admire bravery and self-sacrifice of soldiers who fight for peace and justice.

Despite all that has been said and done, you honestly are not sure that Muslims pose a threat to the United States, in North America. Although I may not have the capacity for recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others as some here. I would like to see things from your point of view but I cannot get my head that far up my behind!  

Now I hope you dont find that offensive, but it is on a little sign that I pull out of my desk, usually when  I am having a discussion with one of my children about some silly tact that they have taken in dealing with lifes complexities. And it sure seems to best fit my feelings about that remark.

Sure, somewhat of a threat, but not nearly as much as your average run-of-the-mill Mexican drug gang, or MS13...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha
(Brother, these people are here right now - and we guard Iraq's borders and not our own.)
or even drunk drivers, who are responsible for 17000 deaths each year in the U.S....http://www.car-accidents.com/drunk-driving-accidents.html
Do the Muslims pose enough of a threat to spend several trillion dollars or so? To cross the world and occupy their countries for decades?  For so many Americans to die over there?
Do you HONESTLY think any good will come our efforts there? Willing to invest in some Afghan real estate?

[Squib]

big river

remember that ideology and the percieved menace it carries scare people a lot more than real dangers.  most children don't check smoke detectors before bed.  they're much more likely to die of a housefire than be eaten by a monster.  they check under the bed though- because they fear a sentient menace. 

just because some idea is logical doesn't mean it makes sense.  fear is an extreme motivator but an emotional one.  emotions obscure intellect- ALWAYS

[rio grande]

big river

remember that ideology and the percieved menace it carries scare people a lot more than real dangers.  most children don't check smoke detectors before bed.  they're much more likely to die of a housefire than be eaten by a monster.  they check under the bed though- because they fear a sentient menace.  

just because some idea is logical doesn't mean it makes sense.  fear is an extreme motivator but an emotional one.  emotions obscure intellect- ALWAYS

Exactly.  Some ideologies are so foreign and unlike anything we could imagine...  they are just frightening, and for good reason.
For that reason they make most excellent bogeymen.  
I'd sure hate to 'live' under Muslim dhimmitude...slavery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude And I know some history, the battle of Lepanto  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/542830/posts
Muslim raids on Europe to capture slaves, the fall of Constantinople..
Real threats, not pretend ones.
And when there WAS a real threat - the Muslim war on Kosovo in the 1990's - our nation supported the Muslim terrorists!
Clinton and Madeline Albright bombed a Christian nation, dropped bombs on Belgrade, on Easter day!  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/310748.stm
Let's get real here.
The Taliban, for instance, had no air force, no navy (!), no armament manufacturing (unless they had a file and a hammer).
Osama had pretty much nothing he wasn't supplied by our CIA, and the Russians would have made short work of him without our CIA protecting him.
And these guys were/are a threat requiring invasions and occupations of Afghanistan? At the cost of American lives, years of war and trillions of dollars?
We're being had, and it ain't by Muslims.

[Squib]

Bush got the ball rolling on muslim protection, exceptionalism for the guys in the "buddy system"

he let the bin ladens in america go after the planes hit, he got the stimulus checks going quietly before his "lame-duck" period, he never bashed obama on the way out but wished him well, HE PUSHED THE PATRIOT ACT which might have actually been truthfully meant to monitor muslim terrorists but my leniancy on his intentions means he's probably just that good, his lineage is more about power than blood.... Obama is the trumpeteer of the third way- I can't stress how much people read that book without knowing the "read between the lines" meaning he put in it.  he is so damned slick but it seems like he got a pass from bush so he could go for a touchdown.  I'm not so sure about a secret society nwo plot by the republican sell-outs pushing war and all when bush was in but I am sure that CORPORATISM was explicitly pushed by bush but in such a slick way when no one was paying attention to the money...

blame it all on obama, that one slimebag politician did it all

[Squib]

tm7's question from his last post



where/who get the ordinance:  eod (explosive ordinance disposal) blows up the small stuff usually.  they'll rig up a charge of c4 and bury all the ieds/c4/guns/rpgs together under a pile of sandbags and detonate/demolish it.  if you're implying that us central command recieves the rounded up equipment and "redistributes" it then no I've not seen it (I have seen them blow it up though)

[ironglow]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think ...

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD266809

   It appears that this whole scenario is simply BHO's plan... in operation.

[Oldshooter]

If Muslims seriously posed a threat to the United States, in North America, I would join TeamNelson (and maybe some of you other guys) on the front lines.  I have no problem with that. I admire bravery and self-sacrifice of soldiers who fight for peace and justice.

Despite all that has been said and done, you honestly are not sure that Muslims pose a threat to the United States, in North America. Although I may not have the capacity for recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others as some here. I would like to see things from your point of view but I cannot get my head that far up my behind!  

Now I hope you dont find that offensive, but it is on a little sign that I pull out of my desk, usually when  I am having a discussion with one of my children about some silly tact that they have taken in dealing with life's complexities. And it sure seems to best fit my feelings about that remark.

Sure, somewhat of a threat, but not nearly as much as your average run-of-the-mill Mexican drug gang, or MS13...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha
(Brother, these people are here right now - and we guard Iraq's borders and not our own.)
or even drunk drivers, who are responsible for 17000 deaths each year in the U.S....http://www.car-accidents.com/drunk-driving-accidents.html
Do the Muslims pose enough of a threat to spend several trillion dollars or so? To cross the world and occupy their countries for decades?  For so many Americans to die over there?
Do you HONESTLY think any good will come our efforts there? Willing to invest in some Afghan real estate?

I dont think we should nation build. I am all for stopping illegal immigration, I am not running for office and have never held one, If the government wanted to stop drunk driving you would not be able to start your vehicle until you "kissed it". or they would sit in beer joint parking lots and stop drunks from getting in their cars, not down the street waiting to see one weaving. Its about the revenue Pardner, kinda like seat belts!

OH we got big problems, no doubt! But back to the point, if you re gonna have a war, make it stick. We do a disservice to our armed forces, past and present, by not committing enough troops or determination when we go there!  hell we would still be routing out Japanese on Iwo if we had fought that like we fight now! Whats wrong with a big tank squirting fire any way? I just want to get serious is all! with muslim terrorist and mexican drug gangs or who ever threatens my security! I dont drink and dont think anyone should but i aint going there now. Let me see.........big tank squirting fire......... that would work in Washington also!

Oh and i dont want any real estate in afghanistan. a parking lot would be nice there though!!!!!!!

Here's my link to make my point:   WWW.busttheirasses.com and it aint porn Pardner!!!

We have the ability we just dont have the resolve, and after reading points of view here i see why!

[Dee]

big river

remember that ideology and the percieved menace it carries scare people a lot more than real dangers.  most children don't check smoke detectors before bed.  they're much more likely to die of a housefire than be eaten by a monster.  they check under the bed though- because they fear a sentient menace.  

just because some idea is logical doesn't mean it makes sense.  fear is an extreme motivator but an emotional one.  emotions obscure intellect- ALWAYS

Exactly.  Some ideologies are so foreign and unlike anything we could imagine...  they are just frightening, and for good reason.
For that reason they make most excellent bogeymen.  
I'd sure hate to 'live' under Muslim dhimmitude...slavery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude And I know some history, the battle of Lepanto  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/542830/posts
Muslim raids on Europe to capture slaves, the fall of Constantinople..
Real threats, not pretend ones.
And when there WAS a real threat - the Muslim war on Kosovo in the 1990's - our nation supported the Muslim terrorists!
Clinton and Madeline Albright bombed a Christian nation, dropped bombs on Belgrade, on Easter day!  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/310748.stm
Let's get real here.
The Taliban, for instance, had no air force, no navy (!), no armament manufacturing (unless they had a file and a hammer).
Osama had pretty much nothing he wasn't supplied by our CIA, and the Russians would have made short work of him without our CIA protecting him.
And these guys were/are a threat requiring invasions and occupations of Afghanistan? At the cost of American lives, years of war and trillions of dollars?
We're being had, and it ain't by Muslims.

Well rio, you certainly have your facts straight don't you? That idea of attacking a 3rd world country on the opposite side of the globe for "what they might be thinking" has never appealed to me, both economically, or morally. It sure gives the chest beaters something to brag about, but, it also gets folks here to funerals they otherwise would not have had to go to. I have said this also many times: When the last American boot steps off of Iraqi soil, and comes home, within 5 years, OR LESS, Iraq will once again become, IRAQ! Mission accomplised? Or nothing accomplished? Iraq IS WHAT IT IS.

Now I also agree that if we're going to fight a war, let's fight it to win. BUT! Does that mean a war we should never have started?

[JASmith]

Should we be in Iraq or Afghanistan? What do you consider a JUST WAR?

I focused on the topic title in my earlier posts: "What is a just war?"

Some of my frustration has been the almost dogged focus on Iraq and Afghanistan shown in the discussions.  I now see that that issue is the focus indicated by the original post.  My apologies for untoward thoughts about straying from topic!

Having acknowledged the focus, my view is that we are involved in both countries for reasons that made sense in light of our needs for self defense -- even if exercised at distance.  The actual (Saddam) or de-facto (Taliban) owners of both countries either made direct threats backed up with the means or directly attacked our country.  Details of whether nuclear weapons were available are meaningless in terms of justification, save in the emotional sense.  These things satisfied the criteria summarized by TeamNelson on the 22nd:

"I've studied Just War theory in Seminary and in War College; the classical requirements for a Just War (jus ad b-e-l-l-u-m) are:

    * Just Cause
    * Proper Authority
    * Right Intention
    * Reasonable Hope for Success
    * Proportionality

BUT (and a big but) all of those are subjective."

The problem is that, in both countries, we neglected to plan, equip, and man for the follow-through.  This neglect gave our leadership false confidence and led us into a quagmire.  The lessons of history tell us that a) pacifying a conquered territory takes a long time, b) This applies even (especially?) when trying to establish or support a neutral or friendly government, and c) Good things won't happen unless the folks with boots on the ground or triggers in the air understand that the war is all about building trust and confidence among the people, regardless of whether they love us.

Many of you likely won't agree with my assessment. A few more of you should agree that we are there now, however, and that consequences will accrue from either departing now or evolving into a more or less permanent presence.  So, regardless of the justification for getting there, we need to figure out how to finish in a way that doesn't cost several million lives after our departure.  Look at Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam in the mid '70s  -- some of the murdered were my friends and colleagues and I don't want a repeat!

[Dee]

I will not even attempt to give a history lesson here concerning Israel and why it is where it is, and for what purpose it is back where it was. I would simply refer anyone "honestly interested" to a history book some 5,000 years old called the Holy Bible. Then the REAL REASON, Israel was put back where it actually originally was, will become imminently clear. All else is uneducated speculation. Israel is at the present in the process of a "reclamation" rather than a "harassment" program. An Arab on the other hand, is an Arab, and the real trespasser.

.
"La reclamation"....you mean like the Mexicans are reclaiming the Southwest.....

The poor, poor, Mexican. TM, you know very little of southwest history, and you continually prove yourself to be more anti-American than anything else. Like the Mexican. England and France also claimed much of the United States. They didn't have much of a presence there, but they claimed it.
An example of such, is YOUR EXAMPLE: Mexico! I know a lot about TEXAS HISTORY, I'M a NATIVE TEXAN, and NATIVE AMERICAN, and I love it's rich history.  Mexico "claimed" Texas, but because of the Comanche, and Apache, had not been able to establish any settlements there. When "The Napoleon of the West", Santa Anna made his deal with Stephen F. Austin, Mexico had been able to establish less than 3,000 people in the entire Republic of Texas, in some 400 YEARS OF CLAIMING IT. In less than 4 years, Austin had established more than 30,000 settlers. Mexico wanted the "wealth, not the people". An historical fact.
The Mexican has followed the white settler all over the United States profiting from the white man's work, while seldom taking the risks.[/color]



There are plenty, I mean plenty, of decent jews that do not believe in this theory/cosmology of the zio-judaeo-christians AT ALL.


Indeed there are TM, indeed there are. But tell me about these Jews you speak of? Are they AMERICAN JEWS, or are they ISRAELI JEWS? Are they CHRISTIAN JEWS, or are they JUST JUDAISM JEWS? One can CONVERT to CHRISTIANITY, and one can CONVERT to JUDAISM. Both are FAITHS, not RACE. 
ALSO! Define "DECENT JEW" for us TM7. What is a "DECENT JEW" in your opinion? [/size] [/color] [/b][/i]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...TM7
.

[Squib]

an eye for an eye.... outright murder is justifiable if retribution for a most heinous crime (in my opinion, and old testament so we can open the argument from there OR)

we can be honest here, and look at the imperialist philosophy of the united states and the UN as well.  it's not about righting a wrong from 9/11 because that's already been done many times over.  it shouldn't be about righting a wrong to the troops either, soldiers do their jobs like it or not so if that job is to leave rather than wait for the reaper to sneak up on patrol... then that's the job.  I have personally bled in the OIF conflict and I don't believe in revenge (for anyone killed, or my own grievious wounds)- why do all the monday morning quarter-backs? 

Dee- look how much persecution the native americans experienced, look at the wild west movies that were prominent when you were young- did you like seeing one group of americans degraded to "savages" and shot at by the "good guys" who invaded their territory.  I won't argue the religious link (native americans weren't originally christians), just the racial one.... decent humans by any measure but not privy to the priviledges of white culture and they were forced into being "savages" for it- to be the boogeyman.

TM7- good points though not well recieved... you can't debate once you push a button though (they get me for it all the time, be tactful)

[rio grande]

 
Just war? Or foolish, immoral and wasteful mistake?
Matthew Hoh should know better than any of us here.
From the Huffington Post. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-morris/matthew-hoh-speaks-grim-t_b_372528.html?view=screen

"When Matthew Hoh recently left the State Department -- a Marine Captain in Iraq who became a diplomat in Afghanistan -- his act was significant far beyond the first reports.

His message is that to pursue the Afghan war policy in any guise -- regardless of the troop level President Obama now chooses -- will be utter folly, trapping America in an unwinnable civil war in the Hindu Kush, and only fueling terrorism.

He knew well the source of that scourge in the U.S.-installed Kabul regime, a kleptocracy of war- and drug-lords holed up amid American bodyguards in "poppy palaces," while clan-based "security forces" loot the countryside, sodomize its sons, and swell insurgent ranks. "We're propping up a government," Hoh said last week, "that isn't worth dying for." So pervasive and profound is that corruption, so entwined with the private exploitation and official graft of the U.S. occupation regime -- including kickbacks or extortion payments from both the American military and civilian aid programs to both the new Kabul plutocracy and the multi-layered Taliban -- that the morass makes every other issue of policy moot."

[Squib]

with money AND religion for the israel first movement going strong... how does america keep the traditional values and institutions while at the same time purging the corruption

I had suggested before that we leave the liberals to their own downfall for encouraging the rise of the little guy (used to be the proletariat, now it's people that don't even work at all) but I didn't quite see the zionist/banking in the background...

if our institutions are corrupt and the ones that run them WANT the war... how do we fight without causing more problems..

I was worried about getting insurance from progressive/george soros but it seems I'm lining some rich puppeteer's pockets no matter what....

what to do?

[teamnelson]

Not if this is an acceptable axiom in your mind:

In some sense...common sense if you will, we could from a practical view judge if a war is just (or just worth it) if:

a) our country is made more secure
b) our economy and national wellbeing is improved
c) our imagined and real enemies choose to cease and desist.
d) our military has been made stronger and better off
e) our national institutions and charters are strenghtened
f) those that support foreign entities first are limited


I guess you get the idea.....TM7

OIF and OEF meet all of these criterion according to the very people whose opinion you do not trust. Heck, per d) we are in fact bigger, better funded and equipped, and able to be more selective in our recruiting now more than before. I could also execute preemptive strike on a population center and be considered "just" per your list.

If this is where you want to leave it then I fear our country will never again truly engage in a Just War.

[Squib]

I still don't know why the "war" is the subject... it's the occupation being called a war that's wrong

a uav can "tag" a target and few pieces of airmail can take care of people, or a battalion of really angry men, or a few abrahms.... but literally shoving people around in their own homes is the problem I see in the conflict

speaking of conflict... that's what they're all called now, conflicts.  it's not a just war if it's lasted for years and years without being declared war- and made accountable to congress instead of the presidential administration after it's 90days

as far as the word game is concerned that should settle it... from a victory standpoint contention remains