Author Topic: Would a Savage/Stevens 308 be the most economical platform for my wildcat idea? (Read 1609 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** July 14, 2009, 09:09:08 PM »

First posting to this particular forum, I appreciate you being here for us "idea" guys. I may be long in years but I am relatively new to centerfire shooting. I have done a ton of research on cartridge designs and their merits. I really like the Bench Rest Remington cartridges - 22, 6mm and 7mm.

I have also been researching the ease or difficulty of rechambering different rifle brands, and it appears to me that the Savage/Stevens barrel nut design offers itself up to pretty easy customization. I have no idea how this really is from a gunsmith's point of view.

I have it in my head that it would be good to develop some more variations like 25, 260, and 270 for instance.

As the BR is a short 308 case, roughly how much engineering and expense to take a Stevens 308, rechamber it for a 25 BR Rem wildcat, and then put a 25 cal barrel on it?

Just wondering. Thanks.

DonT · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2009, 03:10:00 AM »

The savage/stevens action is a very good choice for this sort of conversion.

I have done a number of savage/stevens. They require very few tools. Basically a bench vice, barrel nut wrench, go & no-go gauges and maybe a set of barrel blocks.

Barrels are usually fully chambered prior to installing unlike other actions where the barrel is short chambered and then installed and then the chambering is finished to set the headspace. Headspacing in the savage/stevens is adjusted by screwing the barrel in or out then snugging the barrel nut. In essence it is infinately adjustable.

First time you do this it is going to take you an 1-2 hours but as you do it a few times you can get a change down to, including headspacing, to 15 or 20 minutes.

If your .25 Wildcat uses a .308 (or one with same base like 30.06) then you don't even need to change the bolt head or extractor. If you use a different case head size then you will need to change the bolt head which is a 5 minute job.

DonT

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2009, 03:59:56 AM »

And because you are using a wildcat cartridge you don't need the go no go gauges, you just headspace it off your sized brass so you have custom set head space. Most people do the headspacing on the sized brass they will be using with a Savage. Larry

gunnut69 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2009, 06:46:55 AM »

Glad to have you here.. Your idea sounds a lot like that behind the WSSM cartridges..short high and performance.. Still wildcatters are what they are.. and the Savage is certainly the way to go as far as actions.. The BR series of rounds is staging a minor comeback and brass will be a bit easier to find.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2009, 11:31:22 AM »

Everyone, thanks for the feedback, it looks like my instincts are developing well in this tiny step into wildcat world.

Followup questions, and they may be a little naive.

(1) Assume the wildcat will be a 260 version of the BR Rem. The 308 case length = 2.015". The BR Rem case length = 1.52". I am trying to imagine how the cartridges would feed. Are no bolt changes required because the bolt pushes the round the same distance no matter what, it is just the chamber is shorter in the BR than the 308, the distance the end of the cartridge gets pushed to lockup is exactly the same for both?

(2) Would the Stevens internal box magazine need any mods to deal with the shorter cartridge and steeper shoulder?

(3) Would the smith have to use a custom chamber reamer, or are there off the shelf reamers that could get the job done? Are there reamers that just cut shoulders? Like start with a 260 Rem, case size and neck would conform, and then cut the 30 degree shoulder separately? (I did say naive didn't I?)

(4) What would a 260 barrel for the Stevens cost?

(5) Including rechambering, how many hours would you ballpark for the smith side of the project?

Thanks again. Now this is getting exciting.

trotterlg · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2009, 06:55:24 PM »

The .223 Savage uses a front bolt baffel that has an extension on it to limit the rear travel of the bolt. It is not necessary, however it does help out. The .223 also has a spacer in the rear of the magazine to hold the rounds forward, you may want to do somethig simular for the shorter round you will use. The baffel could be shortened to exactly fit your cartridge requirements. Larry

gunnut69 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:17:17 AM »

Savage parts should be available and the entire action seems designed to be easy to modify.. In this respect it is similar to the ubiquitous 10/22 Ruger.. The magazine spacer simply holds rounds to the front part of the magazine box and will be needed if the baffle is used. The baffle simply limits rearward bolt motion...It may inhibit usage of long bullets seated far out of the case(so would the magazine baffle.. The Baffle also requires a shorter follower. As to your questions--1)as a rule shorter (same diameter) won't cause much feed problems, within reason--(2)-no changes needed (dependant on initial caliber)--(3)-I don't know if this exists as a wildcat now. If not a reamer would have to be made. I know of no reamer commonly available to cut shoulders although I seem "how to's" on cutting chambers using a lathe and boring bars/tools. I've not seen this accomplished and it's unlikely to generate any savings. Remember the taper of the case.. A 260 reamer only used part length would leave the rear of the chamber way to small for the BR casehead. --(4)- Barrel prices are extremely variable and how much to spend depends a lot on what is expected.. Generally tiny groups require more money spent on the barrel. Totally usable barrels that will produce field grade accuracy can be had for less than $100(Watching sales), Lilja and similar can start at several hundred..$500+. --(5)-That would depend great;y on the smith being used but I would guess upwards of $100 at the least..
Wildcatting is not a cheap thing, especially in an experimental way.. Manyof the old time wildcatters were talented gunsmiths and this reduced their costs, at least in money, Time can't be counted as this is a hobby!!

briannmilewis · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2009, 03:50:25 PM »

I do not know who told me this or where...the comment was that if the barrel is set back enough to deal with the short BR Rem cartridge, there would not be enough thread left on the barrel to finish the job. Therefore, I would have to buy a custom profile barrel to do this job to begin with. Does this sound correct?

trotterlg · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2009, 04:52:22 PM »

Not really, the threads on the barrel could be extended some and the barrel nut could be shortened some, I think there will be a way to make it work easily. Larry

briannmilewis · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2009, 04:59:13 PM »

The difference in cartridge length is 0.5". So losing 1/2" of barrel thread would make the change not work?

What about barrels that have not been chambered at all? Doesn't the bore run end to end? So if we started with one of those, rather than a chambered 308 barrel, that would solve the problem?

So where do I get an unchambered barrel under $100?

Watching for sales is a great idea, if I knew where to watch.

Thanks for your patience on this.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2009, 05:00:12 PM »

Larry, hey, thanks...just adding some info...thanks for the update...

pdog06 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:27:02 AM »

you're not gonna find an unchambered barrel for 100, and Savage wont sell their blanks. So basically you could spend alot of money with a gunsmith in addition to buying the gunsmith that reamer, or just call and order a custom aftermarket barrel. It will be close to the same price anyway, and it's ALOT better barrel than a factory.

If you go onto most barrel makers sites they should have their available chamber reamers listed. If they dont have the one you need you can also send them a reamer and they'll build it for you.

You can get a custom barrel ready to bolt on for around $300-350 if they have your reamer.I just bought a 28" SS Lothar Walther 260 barrel for $318 shipped, and it is an awesome barrel. I also have McGowen, Shilen , and Douglas barrels for my Savages. All of them are very nice barrels, but the LW and the 2 McGowens are simply perfect.

Savage doesnt chamber in 260, so you'd have to go aftermarket anyway. A cheaper way out would be to try a Adams& Bennett or ER Shaw barrel. They are a good bit cheaper, but not much better than a factory barrel. They do have them in 260 though.

I would just think if you're gonna do all this work for a custom chamber, I'd hate to see you do it on a factory type barrel and not get the results you're looking for.

For a reamer list, look at the PTG(Pacific Tool and Gauge) site to see if they have one for your chamber. If not this job will be alot more expensive. If they have it call McGowen barrels. They will rent reamers so the customer doesnt have to buy them. As long as they can get that one it'll save you some money.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:06:44 AM »

Thanks pdog06. A reason for not wanting to spend big on a barrel if it can be avoided, is that it is only a hunting rifle, and the BR Rem cartridges are way more inherently accurate than regular cartridges, so I figured I would be well ahead in the accuracy area and not need an expensive barrel to get the 1MOA I need.

I think the more practical approach would be starting with a Stevens 200 in 7mm-08, getting the barrel shot in and testing its accuracy, and rechamber it for the 7mm BR Rem as an experiment in what inherent accuracy the cartridge provides over the stock 7mm-08. This with the understanding that setback when the throat erodes may not be an option later on, but it would be a very cheap place to start, and I would have my starter rifle for the more adventurous project.

wtroger · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:21:09 AM »

If you just want a wildcat for the sake of a wildcat that is fine. But most of the late model Savage/Stevens will shoot MOA straight out of the box. I have one wildcat done on this action it is a 358 WSM the other is a factory round 223 wssm. The 223 wssm started out as a 221 fireball barrel the 358 was blank. But I can do my own machine work so the cost was not all that high. But if you have to hire the work done then things get real expensive very fast. The 7mm-08 and 308 are both very good rounds as they come from the factory. If you want to do something with them that doesn't cost a whole lot then make them improved. Gives most of the benfits of the BR case.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:07:20 PM »

I really appreciate everyone's well thought out recommendations and I will take it all under advisement, giving it the due consideration and respect it deserves. Maybe a gunsmith lathe is in my future....

moorepower · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2009, 12:06:17 PM »

You will spend $350-$400 extra to get a 25br over a prethreaded 6br from one of many vendors. Custom reamers and custom dies are not cheap, and 6br is pretty much a standard chambering, with tons of good brass available. Part of the reason the 6br is so popular and accurate is the 6mm bullet availability compared to the other calibers, of which 25 caliber match bullets are few. If you are just looking for 1moa,, buy a Stevens 200 in .243, 7-08 or 308 and chances are you will find a load that shoots much better than that. For a hunting rifle with a standard barrel, you most likely would not notice a gain in accuracy with a 6br or 7br.

briannmilewis · « **Reply #16 on:** September 04, 2009, 08:32:23 AM »

Moorepower: Thanks for your input, still very valuable while I am in the planning stages. I had worked my way through and PAST the "custom" BR caliber, and ended up with the standard 6mm or 7mm being the obvious choices. As you stated correctly, I could get 1MOA or better from a Stevens in a regular sporting caliber without a whole lot of effort.

This is where I may part company with most: Of the three things that a BR cartridge can bring to the party, accuracy for me is the least important, because I know I will get 1MOA without much effort. As the finished rifle is for hunting, that will be plenty good enough. The more efficient use of powder (30%+ less) and the much improved case reloading life of the BR cases, compared to the sporting parent cases, is where I see my value proposition.

Again, thanks one and all, and I will post again as I get started and work thru the project.

Frank46 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:11:16 AM »

Brian, funny I should see this. The latest issue of "Precision Shooting" has a good article on the 6mmbr cartridge. Since it uses a standard .473 (308 size head) basically all you would need is a new bbl, tools to remove the old bbl and headspace the new one. I bought a savage 110fp in 308 about 16 years ago for about $275. Outshoots my rem 700 in the same caliber. The cartridge has been used in bench rest shooting, and across the board hi power shooting. So if you are looking for a proven accurate cartridge there you go. Frank

MZ5 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:32:08 AM »

Just a thought since I don't know how much you want to customize or change:

If you don't care about changing stocks, take a look at the Marlin rather than the Savage/Stevens. Marlin's trigger (very, very much like an Accu-trigger) is better (more consistent mainly) than Savage's Accu-trigger, and also made of better stuff should you want to stone anything. The Stevens has a conventional trigger which is adjustable to be pretty good, except that creep often remains excessive now that they've removed the sear engagement adjustment screw. Then there's that poor-quality metal thing; the trigger parts often don't tolerate 'adjustment' of the non-screw type very well.

Marlin's XL-7 and XS-7 will take Savage aftermarket barrels, so the supply is the same for either. If you're going to need to change bolt heads or stocks, though, the Marlin doesn't have much or any support in those areas yet, AFAIK.

Good luck!

moorepower · « **Reply #19 on:** September 04, 2009, 10:16:59 AM »

The Savage/ Stevens has a ton of parts to mod into what you want. There are a couple of good triggers, lots of stocks, bolts and bolt heads, SS trigger guards, ect. The Savage is a proven design, "50 years old". Will the Marlin bolt action be around in 5? Time will tell. It may be a great gun, "Savage copy", but only time will tell. Yes the 6br is a more efficient case. Yes, in a br gun it is more accurate, tho I doubt you could tell w/o a custom heavy barrel. You can always load down the 243 and 7-08, say 200 fps and get better case life, but factory is not bad. If you really want a live forever barrel and case, check out the 30br. I am just trying to let you know that even though the 6br is a great great round, do a little math and compare the cost of the 6br dies and custom barrel compared to the powder you save and you are looking at a ton of rounds before you will see break even. Powder is the second cheapest thing in hand loading after primers. Now if your set on the wildcat just cause you want one, then good for you because alot of us, myself included enjoy them. I would suggest going to the Savage shooters forum and looking for one of their vendors "Northlander" and have him order you a 6br barrel in your choice of SS or chromemoly of your choice and contour in a 6br from McGowen and you will be set. I have ordered 2 barrels from him and he is good people.

MZ5 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 04, 2009, 11:57:37 AM »

I agree with moorepower on the payback time issue. The thing about the Savage's "proven design" and "50 years old" is a little misleading, though. Parts and even design have changed, sometimes significantly, several times over that half century. Many (most) parts won't interchange over more than a portion of that time. Accordingly, the Marlin 'copy' is every bit as proven as any iteration of the Savage. My point was simply that the Marlin is more cost-effective and better built in some respects, depending upon what one wishes to change.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 04, 2009, 09:38:05 PM »

I don't know about the exteended case life.. Proper handloading will likely give a better and cheaper return in that endevor.. As to economy the 222 or 223 will beat any of the br rounds. I've some 243 Win cases that have been loaded and fired since the 70's with loads that are right at the edge.. I don't reccommend that but the rifle just kept shooting better as the pressures went up! A 95 grain partition is a wonderful deer killer and both my children used the rifle well. My daughter shot a 135 inch class buck with it, one shot.. They are all still just fine.and the rifle still likes that heavy load.. I did loose a couple over the years but that's just chance.. I would pick a standard caliber that is available in the Savage and work up a 'perfect' load for it.. It could always be the basis for another challenge at some later date..

Three44s · « **Reply #22 on:** November 29, 2009, 05:27:23 AM »

I would figure out what your priorities are in order.

Is it a .25 caliber ?

Is $$$$ effieceny the main drive ??

Once you get your priorities in order ....... then go here:

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/

As another poster suggested ....... look up the Vendor/Member ..... Northlander ..... he's a very good resource.

If your main goal is to go .25 caliber with 1 MOA .......... that's a worthy goal ......

If it's $$$$$ efficiency ......... that's a worthy goal ..........

If it's something different ......... that's a worthy goal ........

But you can't have all three at the same time.

If something different is not really the top goal ........... then a .257 Roberts would outshine the .25 BR.

The efficiency of not spending a TIDY sum to get a barrel etc. etc. ....... and believe me those etceteras do add up ........

........ a .257 Roberts or even a .25-06 loaded conservatively will out run and under cost a wild cat ........

...... bucks is bucks ........

Three 44s

briannmilewis · « **Reply #23 on:** November 29, 2009, 06:40:57 PM »

Three44s: I like the way you put it in perspective, thanks, it is a great help.

Three44s · « **Reply #24 on:** December 03, 2009, 07:36:36 PM »

You are welcome.

This thought occured to me ...... you are looking for 1 moa or better.

You seem to like .25 ....... can't gripe on that either ........

You want overall economy.

Well this could be the barn burner you are looking for:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=194766

This is a A&B barrel from Midway in .250 Savage .... better gas mileage than a .257 Bob or a .25-06 and you can AI it for more speed but the non-wildcats run just FINE!

There are A&B barrels there in .257 and .25-06 as well.

Enjoy

Three 44s