Author Topic: UNIQUE powder for 45-70 target loads? (Read 6342 times)

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **on:** December 04, 2009, 03:50:09 AM »

Good morning all. I recently bought a 47-70 BC and a 38-55 Target Rifle. In an attempt to make a poor man’s Schuetzen rifle, I mounted a full length Malcolm scope on the BC and am anxious to get to the bench to see what it will do. I have been reloading for nearly 35 years with some 45-70 experience (for my Double rifle). Did casts of the chamber and muzzle…..Have .4572 at the breech and .458 at the muzzle. I am anxious to hear what you all suggest for loads and bullet diameters and weights. If anyone has any experience with the 330gr. Lyman 457122, I would especially appreciate your thoughts. Buffalo Arms offers this bullet in the 350gr non-HP as a soft cast. I am into light loads for pleasant target shooting not enraged Guar loads! I have been gleaning info from this site as to load combo’s and an very intrigued with the Unique powder options. I have an 8lb keg and would love to burn it up. Thanx!

eskimo36 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:27:59 AM »

It will take a long time to burn it up at 10-11 grains a shot but that is the fun part. I shoot 11 grains of Unique with a 405 grain .459 lead plain base bullet.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:19:09 AM »

Welcome! GMDR has Unique data for 350gr cast bullets.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:27:28 AM »

Thanx for the link and keep the info coming! Any thoughts on over the powder wads or filler for these loads?

Chas. · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:17:36 AM »

See Graycg's post in this thread http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,188302.0.html

Jeffery8mm · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:06:35 AM »

I shoot the Lyman 457122 330gr HP in my Handi with 13gr of Unique. Mild and FUN Accurate to boot!!
Jeff

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2009, 10:02:34 AM »

Jeff,

EXACTLY what I am looking for! Any over the powder wad/wadding?

Catshooter45 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2009, 02:18:25 PM »

I see no point in wadding/filler for a target load in 45-70, particularly with Unique. Very easy to ignite powder, not posistion sensitive. I've even used pistol primers. I thought my chronograph was broke, it was giving me readings like: 1180,1180,1181,1180,1179. But those five shots went into an inch and an eigth at 100 yards, so what the heck.

I was using Universal Clays for those loads, but Unique would work as well. Have fun.

Cat

tykempster · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:47:18 PM »

If I don't use a filler with Unique in my 45-70 I get hangfires, those are SCARY.

Jeffery8mm · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:59:16 PM »

NO filler here. CCI 200, bullet cast from straight WW, water dropped. Pan lubed with Lars 2500+, 13Gr Unique
Av fps 1215, SD=6.9
One fine group at 50 yds!!!!

Dont know if your on here yet, but come on in
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php
Jeff

maglvr44 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:18:57 PM »

My hunting load is 18gr. Unique under a 340gr. flat nose, hard cast. Nowhere close to a "tear your arm off load" but drops anything quickly!
For small game/target loads I use the same bullet with 15 grains of Unique. Be sure to use some tissue paper or poly-fill to keep the powder down on the primer(any large rifle primer works fine for me).
Remember, with a flat nose hardcast, after 1200-1300fps. "the faster it goes...the faster it slows" aka. LESS penetration.
Happy shooting!

Jeffery8mm · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:39:30 AM »

Unique is NOT a position sensitive powder!!! No need for a filler. It really just adds a time consuming step.
Jeff

cpj · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:24:05 AM »

Quote from: Jeffery8mm on December 05, 2009, 02:39:30 AM

Unique is NOT a position sensitive powder!!! No need for a filler. It really just adds a time consuming step.
Jeff

While it may not be.........I get hangfires when I use it in 45-70 loads..... Your mileage may vary.....

I switched to Trail Boss. 12 grains pushes a 405 grain bullet around 1000 FPS. Plenty to go in and out of a deer at 75 yards.

cpj · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:37:42 AM »

Quote from: maglvr44 on December 04, 2009, 07:18:57 PM

Remember, with a flat nose hardcast, after 1200-1300fps. "the faster it goes...the faster it slows" aka. LESS penetration.
Happy shooting!

Explain how that works.

Sourdough · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:58:23 AM »

I wanted to say something here, but have held off, unsure about how to say it. Large capacity cases with low volume powder. Scares me.

Detonation, saw it last year in a .45LC. Scared the heck out of me. Gun came apart. Cylinder blew out, side of chamber missing. Top strap peeled back, barrel angled down. Shooter was taken to hospital with serious injuries.

Charge was either Unique or Bullseye, can't remember which. I do remember looking at the load data written on the box, and thinking it was a light load. I also remember shaking the shells hearing the powder move around inside. Came home and unloaded all my .45LC light charges. Switched to Trail Boss for light loads.

Witnesses said the shooter had the gun (a S&W) hanging down at his side. Slowly raised it to eye level and fired. Gun exploded. Later a person that has been shooting a lot longer than I have explained to me his view on what happened.

Holding the gun with the barrel pointing down, caused all the powder in the case to fall down against the bullet. This left an air space back next to the primer. Raising the gun slowly did not cause the powder to move to the rear near the primer, it stayed near the bullet. When the primer went off the spark hit an area rich in fine particulate and air, before getting to the powder. There was an explosion in the air rich rear of the cartridge, causing pressures to reach higher than the cartridge or gun was able to handle.

Call me paranoid if you want, but I am now very cautious about shooting .45LC, 45-70, and .44Spl loaded light. I prefer to use high volume powder. I have a can of Unique and a can of Bullseye that will never get used by me. Will probably donate to the class where we pour some out, stick a match to it, and let the kids see it burn.

falaz · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2009, 08:32:23 AM »

Quote from: cpj on December 05, 2009, 07:24:05 AM

Quote from: Jeffery8mm on December 05, 2009, 02:39:30 AM
Unique is NOT a position sensitive powder!!! No need for a filler. It really just adds a time consuming step.
Jeff
While it may not be.........I get hangfires when I use it in 45-70 loads..... Your mileage may vary.....

I switched to Trail Boss. 12 grains pushes a 405 grain bullet around 1000 FPS. Plenty to go in and out of a deer at 75 yards.

I too use Trail Boss. 14g with a 350g Berry's plated flat nose @1150fps. Shoot 'em all day like .22s

My pre-teen nephews love them 'cause they get to shoot Uncle Larry's big gun

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:49:28 AM »

I suggest anyone that's apprehensive about using pistol powders with cast bullets in the 45-70, read the opening page at the GMDR link I posted yesterday, I think their 80,000 loads down range in the tests they've done speaks for itself, I found no mention of fillers. It's my opinion that "accidents" associated with the use of these low dose loads is actually caused by double charges which is a real possibility when loading large volume cases like the 45-70, for instance, a double charge of GMDR's top 405gr load with Unique produces a QuickLoad predicted pressure of almost 60,000psi.

Tim

Dill45 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:17:16 AM »

I shoot a ton of reduced loads in my 45-70. I've used reddot, bullseye, and trailboss, haven't ever used unique though. All preform very well in the gun and the most accurate load of I've ever loaded up is from trail boss. 14.4 grains of trailboss behind a 300gr lead bp bullet gives me a clover at 50 yards. 12 gains of reddot behind a 300gr lead BP bullet preformed almost as well as the trailboss. It shoots slow and pretty cleanly too I might add. Recoil is pretty non-existent, and doesn't cause leading my Marlin.

I must caution though, double charging with reddot, bullseye, and unique would be very easy to do. The powders do not use that much case capacity and are hard to see unless light is being shined directly down into the case. If there is ever any doubt that you may have double charged a case, empty it, and the ones before and after it. Better safe than sorry. For this exact reason I only load 1 shell at a time for these. (Prime it, charge it, check it, and then put a bullet in it and put it away.) This is also a great reason to use trailboss. The powder is very bulky and makes it pretty hard to double charge since 14grs is right at the base of the bullet when seated. It's easy to see in the case and would be very obvious if double charged.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:26:45 PM »

The low volume of powder in a big case can be countered with the use of cosmetic puffs. Not cotton balls, but those colored synthetic puffs found in the cosmetic section of stores. It dosen't take much to fill a 45/70 case. Don't pack it in; just use enough to hold the powder against the primer. I've gone to the extreme to weigh the puffs to make sure each cartridge is the same.

Graycg · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:10:28 PM »

Unique is my favorite powder for target and plinking loads in the 45-70, I usually use 13 grains with cast bullets 300-400. For hotter loads I use 2400 and for much hotter loads I use 4198 or RL7. Unique is dirty but very accurate and easy on the shoulder. MAKE sure you don't DOUBLE or TRIPLE CHARGE your cases...13 grains in s 45-70 case looks mighty small and 26 grains doesn't look too much different...look carefully in each case! I do not use fillers and have found no need for them with unique.

good luck and good shooting,
regards,
Graycg.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2009, 01:02:39 AM »

Quote from: cpj on December 05, 2009, 07:37:42 AM

Quote from: maglvr44 on December 04, 2009, 07:18:57 PM

Remember, with a flat nose hardcast, after 1200-1300fps. "the faster it goes...the faster it slows" aka. LESS penetration.
Happy shooting!

Explain how that works.

Quick reply.......
It has to do with how fast tissue can release it's water content (tissue is over 90% water, exact percentage varies slightly by species).
So, once the maximum rate is surpassed, tissue acts more dense that it is. And the faster the projectile the more dense it gets, multiplying resistance and slowing the bullet. No different then being in a swiming pool and slapping your open hand, as hard as you can, on the surface of the water, then take the same open hand and push it down in the water, that will easily go all the way down to arms length, but the slap probably only went half as deep.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2009, 01:29:03 AM »

Quote from: Sourdough link=topic=190672.msg 1098956959#msg 1098956959 date=1260039503

I wanted to say something here, but have held off, unsure about how to say it. Large capacity cases with low volume powder. Scares me.

Detonation, saw it last year in a .45LC. Scared the heck out of me. Gun came apart. Cylinder blew out, side of chamber missing. Top strap peeled back, barrel angled down. Shooter was taken to hospital with serious injuries.

Charge was either Unique or Bullseye, can't remember which. I do remember looking at the load data written on the box, and thinking it was a light load. I also remember shaking the shells hearing the powder move around inside. Came home and unloaded all my .45LC light charges. Switched to Trail Boss for light loads.

Witnesses said the shooter had the gun (a S&W) hanging down at his side. Slowly raised it to eye level and fired. Gun exploded. Later a person that has been shooting a lot longer than I have explained to me his view on what happened.

Holding the gun with the barrel pointing down, caused all the powder in the case to fall down against the bullet. This left an air space back next to the primer. Raising the gun slowly did not cause the powder to move to the rear near the primer, it stayed near the bullet. When the primer went off the spark hit an area rich in fine particulate and air, before getting to the powder. There was an explosion in the air rich rear of the cartridge, causing pressures to reach higher than the cartridge or gun was able to handle.

Call me paranoid if you want, but I am now very cautious about shooting .45LC, 45-70, and .44 Spl loaded light. I prefer to use high volume powder. I have a can of Unique and a can of Bullseye that will never get used by me. Will probably donate to the class where we pour some out, stick a match to it, and let the kids see it burn.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!!!

ANYTIME, your powder charge drops below the flash hole of the case with it lying horizontal, detonation is a possibility.

I personally watched this happen to a guy not three or four benches from me. He was shooting a 38 Spl with Bullseye. He was using 357mag cases IIRC. I watched him tip the gun up and tap the but on the bench with every shot. I assume to knock the powder to the rear of the case. I guess either he forgot, or it didn't quite work out as he planned. I dont believe he was badly hurt, but they took him off to the hospital. The gun was toast, blew out one chamber and the top strap, it was a nice older S&W.
Now I have shot pounds of this "splash of powder in a 38 Spl case with a DEWC bullet. BUT this is a very deeply seated bullet. GREATLY reducing the cases capacity. I have also shot Bullseye in my 45 ACP for competition loads, with no problems. But these are no where near the voluminous case capacities you guys are talking about.

PLEASE be careful!! Do your self and your loved ones a favor, switch to a bulkier powder like Trail Boss!!

IMHO,
CW

Sourdough · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2009, 09:52:05 PM »

This why so many Cowboy action shooters use Trail Boss. It's a low pressure, high volume powder, that prevents the chances of detonation or double charging. I understand it was developed just for that purpose.

manatee1947 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2009, 05:55:56 PM »

I don't know much about the unique but I intend to. I have used both over powder dacron wads, and no wads with my loads with no problems so far. I have quite a bit of experience with the 457122 bullet. I have the HP version. I use 33gr of IMR-4198 in that myself, I have used it both with and without a wad, and with 35 gr of RL7, and with 24 gr of 2400. I find it to be quite accurate and the recoil is pretty mild. I have worked out of the Lyman cast bullet handbook circa 1980, and have been using it since it was published. The new 49th edition lists no loads with unique.My first loading book, the 1970 Lyman-44th edition lists unique 14 to 17 gr w/ the 385 gr cast, 13 to 16 gr with th 482 gr bullet, and 12 to 14 with the 552 gr. They make no mention of wads. I have never had a hang fire on a load. The wads I used were the stuff they used for furniture backing and stuffing pillows, I simply used a paper cutter at the office to slice the cloth into 1/2 inch squares and seated them all with a pencil down on the powder. That is not really a bad idea, it served just like marking the ramrod on your muzzle loader which prevents double charging.

PawPaw · « **Reply #24 on:** December 08, 2009, 04:44:09 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 04, 2009, 05:19:09 AM

Welcome! GMDR has Unique data for 350gr cast bullets.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Thanks for that link, Tim. I surfed over there for several hours and bookmarked it as a reference point.