Author Topic: cat sneeze ? again  (Read 1674 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Franklin7x57

  • Trade Count: (48)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 93
cat sneeze ? again
« on: November 26, 2009, 12:04:02 PM »
I wanted to load a cat sneeze load in 45-70, but I'm thinking a 44 special load maybe better. I've got some Trail Boss and bulleye. I loaded 4.0 of Trail Boss with a pure lead 230 grain bullet, but that's too loud. Can I reduced this powder or should I switch to Bulleye?

Offline stimpylu32

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (67)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6062
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 03:24:40 PM »
Don't think going lower with TrailBoss is a good idea , your about 650 fps with 4g now , much lower and your running the risk of sticking a bullet in the barrel .

You may want to look at a different round or maybe a Air rifle if noise is that much of an issue .

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline MZ5

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 06:48:30 AM »
I'm with stimpy.  I've loaded my 30-06 down super-low for fire lapping with pure lead bullets.  Slow enough that the bullet doesn't stick, but the filler I used over the powder charge did.  Used Unique.  Even with that, the report was loud enough that I'd wear ears.  Not gonna bust ear drums (IMO), but still not great.

Offline jlwilliams

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 07:51:22 AM »
  May I ask what's the intended purpose?  There are a few ways to make cat's sneeze loads but what you want to do with them makes all the difference in the world.

  If what you want is a large bore rifle that you can shoot in your basement, maybe try the plastic projectiles that you shoot with a primer only in the case (Speer made them I think).  You can use hot glue sticks instead.  Cut little pieces as close to the same length as possable, they are ususally perfect in 44 cal,  Or use a bullet mould andfill it from the hot glue gun.  With just a primer they will shoot fairly well across a room with enough power to punch a hole in paper or knock down a soda can.  Glue fowling isn't as problematic as you may think.  If it builds up at all, you can take it out with regular hardware store denatured alcohol solvent.  It doesn't disolve the glue into a mess, it just breaks it's bond so it pushes out with a patch.  The plastic bullets are reusable and not too much money, the hot glue is dirt cheap but not reusable unless you are moulding them.

  If you're looking for a load with a little more punch and still want to keep it indoor quiet, try light loads with a ball.  A ball is lighter than a bullet in the same diameter and has less surface in contact with the bore, so less resistance. 

  I did some work a couple years ago with boring out cases to accept a 203 primer and soldering a piece of brass tube into the case to keep the ball from rolling back.  I was using bottle necked rifle cases, so the tube was a needed piece.  I made a few in 7.62x54r that worked pretty well.  I don't remember the exact size balls, but I do remember that it was a bit tricky finding lead balls that wouldn't roll right through the bore or get jammed in.  I do know I found some that worked.  You may be able to do something with a .410 shell, a primer and some light projectile through a 45-70.

  Big thing is to always check between each shot when you are playing with cat's sneeze loads.  If you're using a single shot like a Handi or a rolling block it's easy to peek down the pipe, a trapdoor is a little harder but you'll think of something.  When I was playing with a mosin nagant the temptatuion to not look was tough.  I made a point of shooting light metal targets so they made a "gong" sound so I knew the ball had cleared the bore.  You can also use a light.  You don't have to look through to see if light shined in one end shines out the other.  Be safe, have fun.

  All that said, a 22 with cb's or a pellet gun may be the thing.  It all gets back to what you want to do with it......

Offline Kmrere42

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 03:53:35 PM »
Do cats really sneeze???

Yes they really do after sneaking up on you while making bread. They also like freshly cleaned sofas to wipe the flour off with.



Honestly, IF you want a real quiet load then spend the cash and do the paperwork for a suppressor. 


If you need something for short range pest control then look over the used gun racks for a older remington or mossberg 22 with a 27" - 29"  barrel.  With C.B. long loads, the fall of the firing pin is usually louder than the report.


Paul





Offline buck460XVR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 05:07:05 PM »
a cat sneeze load in 45-70

from Wikipedia.......
Quote
An oxymoron (plural oxymora (greek plural) or, more often, oxymorons) ("sharply dull" in Greek) is a figure of speech that combines normally contradictory terms. They appear in a range of contexts, from inadvertent errors such as extremely average, to deliberate puns like same difference, to literary oxymorons that have been carefully crafted to reveal a paradox.
"where'd you get the gun....son?"

Offline kevinsmith5

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1274
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2009, 03:38:42 PM »
Shoot a collar button. 150 gr bullet instead of 230. 
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline mechanic

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 03:59:55 PM »
Buy a 357 rifle.  Shoot standard 38's in it.  Or load 148gr. wadcutters over 3gn Bullseye.  Quieter than some air guns from a 22" barrel.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline cwlongshot

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (158)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9907
  • Gender: Male
  • Shooting, Hunting, the Outdoors & ATVs
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »
I am NO fan of lite bullets at extremely lo velocities. like Stimpy mentioned its a real hazard of having the bullets stuck in the barrel. With such lo velocities and recoil, you may not even notice it!! BAD BAD BAD!!

If you need lo report loads, try a heavy for caliber lead bullet at lower velocities. First never do this with a jacketed bullet. With the heavy bullet, case cap is smaller, lighter powder charges will work more efficiently. Paco Kelly did some write ups years ago on this. IIRC they can be read over on leverguns.com.

CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

NRA LIFE Member 
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline 243dave

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 517
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 09:50:43 AM »
 Franklin if your trying to get a 44special pistol as quiet as a 45-70 from a rifle, I don't think you can. A rifles long barrel is your friend. Heres the write-up CW mentioned. Its a good read even if you don't use any of the info. Paco talks about the 45-70 and lots of other rifle cartridges(no 44 specials). Check it out.   Dave  http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm 

Offline jlwilliams

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 01:17:06 PM »
  I was thinking he means 44 special out of a rifle.

Offline Steve P

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1733
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 09:38:25 AM »
I wanted to load a cat sneeze load in 45-70, but I'm thinking a 44 special load maybe better. I've got some Trail Boss and bulleye. I loaded 4.0 of Trail Boss with a pure lead 230 grain bullet, but that's too loud. Can I reduced this powder or should I switch to Bulleye?

Cat Sneeze load and 44 special loads are not one in the same.  Especially from a 45-70.  Are you loading for a 45-70 rifle or pistol?  Are you looking for a low velocity / low noise load?  Are you looking for a 45-70 load with 44 special velocity?  Low velocity / low noise loads can be made by loading up .457 round balls and light loads of powder.  Minimal chance in sticking in the barrel, usually go poof, and ball drops like a rock.  Good for knocking a pest off your door step, but may miss your back fence (or broad side of your barn).

Give us a little more info on what you are looking for and maybe someone will have a better response.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Franklin7x57

  • Trade Count: (48)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 93
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 05:03:50 AM »
I've got a T/C 16" barrel in 45-70 and a Marlin 44 mag. I was trying to at first to find a quiet load in 45-70 to punch through 100 lb deer. Heavy and slow, then I thought about the Marlin. Smaller case, with 44 special case that would be easier not as much empty space in case. I'd only be shooting 10-15 yds, but now I think a crossbow maybe a better idea.

Offline Sweetwater

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Gender: Male
  • When it ceases to be fun, I shall cease to do it.
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 07:05:13 AM »
Quiet shooting of deer with a 45-70 rifle, 44Spl in 44Mag rifle, or crossbow.
All viable choices. In order to make it work, you need to make a choice and then dig into it, making sure it's legal and ethical, and make it happen. Until you focus on something, it will never happen. There is nothing new, only stuff we haven't read about or experienced, yet, so research is a great place to start, after focusing on what it is you have chosen to accomplish.
Or forget it, and that's just another choice.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline Steve P

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1733
  • Gender: Male
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 08:48:28 AM »
Using either the 45-70 or 44 mag, you want to use full length brass.  You don't want a light load in short brass fouling up your chamber.  Light round ball loads in either one of those would be quiet (as not as loud as a factory round) and could be loaded to velocities to ethically take a deer at 10-15 yards.  If I had to choose between the two, I would use the Marlin in a heart beat over the pistol.  Aiming, ease of making loads, and follow-up shots if needed are just a few of the quick thoughts that come to mind.

There are other avenues that can be taken to quiet the report, but GB does not like us to discuss those here because some of them may not be legal in all areas. 

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Franklin7x57

  • Trade Count: (48)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 93
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 10:30:17 AM »
The T/C 45-70 is in carbine form so shooting will be the same. It's legal, I just have neighbors that feed them while they eat my garden. Don't want to elimate them because I enjoy them too, but cars get a dozen or so in a mile of my house. That's just a waste, a couple in my freeze will help not hurt the herd.

Offline jlwilliams

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 02:35:46 AM »
  That helps.  Knowing the purpose makes the difference.  My plastic bullet suggestion just doesn't fit the bill for you.  Maybe some one else benefits from it, but the shoe don't fit this girl.

  Sounds like the Marlin could be the ticket.  I'd try a couple of loads for each, bring them to the range and see what's best.

  The key may be keeping track of your neighbors for a little bit.  Figure out their schedules and pick a time when you have the neighborhood more or less to yourself.  It's not a problem if no one complains....

  If you use the crossbow, just be careful about a good stopping shot.  All the stealth in the world goes out the window if your target runs into someone elses yard to expire.  Then you really look like the neighborhood badguy.

Offline BruceP

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 05:38:00 AM »
Ok let me start by saying I have no experience with shooting deer with these type loads. So this is just theory and my theory at that.
If I were looking for the same thing you are I'm thinking with the firearms I you would get the best results from the 45-70 with a 400 - 500 grain cast bullet with as large of a flat nose as you can get. Since velocity will have to be low you will need the momentum of a heavy bullet to get the penetration you will need. I have shot a stray tom cat with a very low velocity round ball load from a 45-70 and the ball knocked him a flip and did not penetrate at all. It bounced off of him. As much as I dislike feral cats even they deserve better than that so I never used it again. I would think that to get the ball to penetrate the velocity would have to be so high that the load would be to loud. Now having said all that (or nothing depending on your view) The best option you mentioned would be the crossbow. I have use a compound bow on several deer so I do know the effectiveness of a good broadhead.

Bruce
Lord, Please help me
Keep my small mind open
and my big mouth shut.

Offline Sweetwater

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Gender: Male
  • When it ceases to be fun, I shall cease to do it.
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 08:05:11 PM »
I shot a feral cat once at a paced 135ft with a 45 Colt 250gr standard factory lead load. Hit the cat in the back of the head as it was running out of my garbage can. It flipped the cat for sure with full penetration of the skull. Muzzle velocity at 775fps. My guess for your 44Mag rifle would be with something around 335gr in a WFN or a LFN if feeding is a problem in the rifle. Loaded in the +/-750fps area should be ample velocity in your garden. Other posts have indicated what velocity was needed to penetrate 2x4's and such and what loads it took to get there. Have fun and stay safe, and keep it humane. Once again, shot placement will probably be a bit hyper-critical with such a load.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline patw

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 212
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 01:48:31 AM »
You may want to read Developing Ultra-Lite Loads by Norm Johnson.  http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html

"Paco Kelly claims to have put a 450 gr. pure lead bullet through the heart lung area of a coyote at 50 yards using 2 1/2 gr. of Bullseye in his .45-70. This, good reader, is .45 ACP ballistics without the noise."

I have not tried for accuracy or penetration, I just have played with getting the noise out of a 45-70 to the level of an airgun.  Even then, a 450 grain bullet will do a number on a 2x6

Offline jlwilliams

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 02:04:18 AM »
  A further observation.  Since you have a 45-70 and a 44, both rifles, pick whichever one has the longer barrel and work up a load for it. 

Offline BruceP

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 03:30:14 PM »
After reading Sweetwater's first line I just want to clarify about the shot I made on the feral cat. The shot was only about 20 yards and in this case I actualy saw the ball as it bounced off the cats shoulder and landed about two feet back toward me. I know that Sweetwater did not accuse me of just assuming that the ball bounced off but some could get that imperssion not just from his post but from mine as well. Like I said this was a "very" low velocity load (not cronographed) that I made to try because we were having a feral cat problem at the time. As I'm sure some of you know living out in the country some people like to dump out their unwanted animals. I'm sure I could have raised the powder charge on that load and got it to work I just never tried. A 38 cal. wadcutter at around 700-800 fps was another story altogether though.

Bruce
Lord, Please help me
Keep my small mind open
and my big mouth shut.

Offline jlwilliams

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 02:20:23 AM »
As I'm sure some of you know living out in the country some people like to dump out their unwanted animals.

Bruce

  That's a source of anger and sorrow.  Some people are cruel, stupid, or both.

Offline BruceP

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 02:36:26 PM »
"That's a source of anger and sorrow.  Some people are cruel, stupid, or both."
 
Agreed. At one time about 15 years ago we had a pack of feral dogs that numbered between 10 and 20 animals most of which were dropped out. Once one was dropped out that had no bottom jaw. I don't know how they thought It would survive.

Bruce
Lord, Please help me
Keep my small mind open
and my big mouth shut.

Offline Sweetwater

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Gender: Male
  • When it ceases to be fun, I shall cease to do it.
Re: cat sneeze ? again
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 02:44:20 PM »
BruceP- You are correct. Anything that appears as a personal attack is most likely a glich between operator brain and keyboard! LOL 
It was simply "my cat tale". Cat never sneezed again! Nope, not in my garbage!
Another time, I did bounce a BB off a cat in the backyard. I never dreamed I'd hit it, about 100ft off the doorstep, but my Daisy Spittin' Image was on and I was hot! The cat left, and I haven't seen it lately in my yard, though have seen it down the street. I do be careful. Some jurisdictions consider "firing an air rifle" to be the same as "discharging a weapon inside the  city limits". Can't wait to get outside!

I will be playing with these low velocity loads when I get moved into our new digs. I like the idea, now that I'm deaf already! LOL I've got an old '86 Winchester in 40-82 that needs to be kept light (1887mfg). It's a kitchen table carbine and not a collector, and I've kept it in the black powder velocity realm, though using smokeless powders. Should be able to load up some 300gr lead and make some quiet loads.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater