Author Topic: Need Help Deciding, 44Mag, 444, or 45/70 (Read 2218 times)

petemi · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:07:16 AM »

I've got a .45-70 Handi which is probably still my favorite. But, I had a very special friend, here, ream my .44 mag to .445 super. I would say get the .44, ream it to .445 and the young gal can shoot .44 specials, .44 Russian, .44 Mags and .445 Supers as she grows. For you, the mag and .445 will give you all you need for whitetails.

There's the SB1/SB2 question. You could get the .45-70 or .444 and a .44 mag barrel to put on the SB2 frame. I think my NEXT Handi will be the .444. Ya just can't have too many.

Pete

gcrank1 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:19:46 AM »

Or just load the 444 like its a 44mag (or like I did 44Spl eqiv. loads) and 'if' you ever need more beans load it up. I used .430 dia. cast lead bullets made of wheel weight alloy and anywhere from 7.0 to 10.0 of Unique in both the 44 Mag H&R Shikari and the Marlin 336 444. Since you will do the reloading she wont notice the difference, they will shoot and feel the same. But, the normal disclaimer I have to mention, this works for me, you are on your own if you do this.
Brass cost on the 444 might be a factor initially, but in 44 Mag equiv loads should last a long time. If want to be able to (oh my!) BUY ammo the 44 Mag is available all over. The 'cowboy' loads would be nice for her.
For reloading data just use that in any book for the 44 Mag for the 444.
Good point on the 'where ya gonna shoot it though' since pistol cartridge chambered rifles will be accepted where those devil long range guns arent. If that isnt an issue with you then either/or, your preference.

myank · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:54:03 AM »

Great info! Just to make sure that I understand correctly, it is ok to use the 44mag reloading data for the .444? Will this produce accurate loads, because I enjoy paper punching!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2010, 09:06:21 AM »

Quote from: myank on January 22, 2010, 08:54:03 AM

Great info! Just to make sure that I understand correctly, it is ok to use the 44mag reloading data for the .444? Will this produce accurate loads, because I enjoy paper punching!

No, that would NOT be true, there is data for reduced loads in the 444, here's some.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

myank · « **Reply #34 on:** January 24, 2010, 10:26:16 AM »

Looks like a will be getting the 45/70. I can't find a 44mag anywhere, called about a dozen shops. I was able to find a new 45/70 wood stock for $236.00, that's too good to pass on. I figure I can always send it in for a 44mag barrel or find one on here. Now I will have to start doing research on reduced loads for the 45/70. Thanks for everyones input!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #35 on:** January 24, 2010, 10:36:19 AM »

trail boss powder

manatee1947 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:00:09 PM »

I have both. I would say get the 444 now, because the 45/70 is a lot easier to find.The 45/70, even light loads, tend to jar somewhat, but they are accurate and fun. The 44 pistol bullets, either jacketed or cast, are easy to find and cheaper. I have questions out here myself about loads for my 444, particularly the OAL with 300gr bullets. My current loads are the 429421 Lyman bullet and 35 gr of RL7, the same bullet and 20 gr of 2400, or the 215 gr bullet and 15 gr of blue dot. The jacketed bullet I use is the std 240 gr HP or SP, either one with 46 gr of IMR 4198. I have killed deer with the 1st load out to 100yds, very effective, 2.5 " @ 100yds, and out to 250 yards with the jacketed load, it shoots about 1.125 @ 100yds. That being said, I would never be without a 45/70, for very long.

mechanic · « **Reply #37 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:08:46 PM »

Good choice, the 45-70 is excellent. I have the BC, just completed a 22" Handi, and am looking for another BC soon to ream to 45-120.

lgm270 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:22:47 PM »

Can't you shoot .44 mag's in a .444 chamber?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #39 on:** January 24, 2010, 06:16:23 PM »

Quote from: lgm270 on January 24, 2010, 05:22:47 PM

Can't you shoot .44 mag's in a .444 chamber?

If you like the possibility of 36,000psi of hot gases coming back thru the firing pin channel and from the barrel face, go ahead an give it a shot!

In one word, no, the 444 chamber is too big.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,175149.msg1098829703.html#msg1098829703

Quote from: cowboyup453 on June 06, 2009, 08:37:37 AM

I found this pick a while back. This 44 mag was fired in a 444 marlin no by me though.

preventec47 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 25, 2010, 07:58:57 AM »

My only problem with the 44 mag barrel is the 1-38 inch twist rate
and if you ream it out to 445 max I think yea it will approach
the 444 in powder capacity( perhaps?) but wouldnt you be
restricted to lighter bullets or risk terrible accuracy with
heavy bullets due to slow twist rate ?

I think Quicktodoo said the 444 has 1-20 twist rate.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #41 on:** January 25, 2010, 08:11:28 AM »

445SM isn't even close to the 444's capacity, 67.2gr H2o compared to 47.6gr for the 445.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare.cgi?sn=BgkOiiFxCe&loadset=59&xxglbl=1

myank · « **Reply #42 on:** January 25, 2010, 08:23:21 AM »

I picked up the 45/70 this morning, it's a sharp looking gun. I'm actually impressed with the stock, I saw some pretty rough looking ones in my search. I think that it is in my best interest to follow published re-loading data for trapdoor rifles to start out. This will allow me to get a feel for the rifle. I can work up from there if and when I want to.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #43 on:** January 25, 2010, 10:58:59 AM »

Congrats!!

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #44 on:** January 25, 2010, 11:30:27 AM »

Good for you! Now the fun starts.

lgm270 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 25, 2010, 11:30:57 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on January 24, 2010, 06:16:23 PM

Quote from: lgm270 on January 24, 2010, 05:22:47 PM
Can't you shoot .44 mag's in a .444 chamber?

If you like the possibility of 36,000psi of hot gases coming back thru the firing pin channel and from the barrel face, go ahead an give it a shot! In one word, no, the 444 chamber is too big.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,175149.msg1098829703.html#msg1098829703

Quote from: cowboyup453 on June 06, 2009, 08:37:37 AM
I found this pick a while back. This 44 mag was fired in a 444 marlin no by me though.

Wow! Not a great idea. However, you could shorten .444 cases to .44 mag length and use .44 mag load data.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #46 on:** January 25, 2010, 11:34:52 AM »

Or just use Trail Boss or other reduced loads in the 444.

Tim

http://hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

preventec47 · « **Reply #47 on:** January 25, 2010, 12:03:01 PM »

However, you could shorten .444 cases to .44 mag length and use .44 mag load data.
[/quote]

Since the drawings indicate that the 444 case is slightly tapered,
if you trim the case shorter, the case mouth might be too big to
crimp on the bullet.

moorepower · « **Reply #48 on:** January 25, 2010, 12:59:04 PM »

Trail Boss and bullets you cast. Cheap and won't kick too bad.

Swampman · « **Reply #49 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:04:50 PM »

The .444 not having sight is a big issue for me. I like the sights on my .45-70 even though I don't use them.

IndianawantZme · « **Reply #50 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:19:53 PM »

Quote from: myank on January 21, 2010, 05:10:50 AM

The local shop has both the .444 and 45/70 in stock, so it is tempting just to pick-up one of those. However, I don't know if I should hold out for a .44[Mag.] Thanks

Facts be know the .45-70 and .444 Marlin are virtual clones when hand loaded for modern firearms , the .444 actually has a very slight edge over the 45-70 in performance according to my "Hornady" manual yet each has they're own following .!

The .444 came along in the early 60's after most big bores including the .45-70 had fallen out of favor for more popular offerings i9n bolt actions offering super high high velocity and magnum performance .

This was the time "Weatherby" was doing very well !

The problem was that while modern .45=70's were capable of handling higher pressure , there were still a lot of older guns out there that could not ; like the trap doors and 1895's . Souping up the factory ammo was not an option because of this .

Since there was still a viable market for big bores at the time and the marketing strategy of , "It's hard to sell someone something they already have one of" , so since "New & Improved" became was selling in those days the .444 was born by Marlin to appeal to the die hard big bore fans .

"Case" wise they're virtual twins , the major differences being 0.091" longer 0AL case length on the .444 to prevent it from chambering in any older/weaker 45-70' actions , 0.036 smaller base diameter and different diameter/style rims to prevent the new ."powerful" .444 from functioning through repeating actions specifically not designed for it .

Now you had a big bore cartridge that could be safely loaded to it's fullest potential and only fit in modern firearms chambered specifically for it ! Factory ammo for a .45-70 was limited to 28,000 PSI SAMMI and the New .444 marlin was loaded to 42,000PSI SAMMI .

Springfield trap doors were safe for 28,000 psi SAMMI

Marlin 1895's were safe for 40,000 psi SAMMI

For a modern Rugar #1 action Hornady manual lists .45-70 loads to 50,000 psi SAMMI . These loads would be extremely unsafe if they EVER found their way into any older action !

In a modern firearms , loaded to the same pressures ; 45-70 & 444 are basically twins .

Take your pick nostalgic or more modern .

As for the .44 Rem. Mag , it's very convenient IF you already have a hand gun chambered for it you can shoot the same ammo in both and .44Spl's too for reduced loads .

The .44 Mag in a rifle will drop a deer very reliably out to 100 yards and slightly beyond .

Personally I bought the . 44 Mag , mostly because I'm limited to a 1.625 0AL brass case for hunting deer in Indiana and that's specifically what the firearms was purchased for .

I like the .444 Marlin which is gaining popularity I faced the basically same situation because I like the .444 better for PA hunting presently as most big bores are . Gander Mtn . Presently has a special deal going on a NEF , stainless reciever ,blue barrel cammo stocked .444 rifle witha scope and mounts combo for $ 299.95 .

I purchased the . H&R Handi .44M in blue black synthetic stocked with scope rail , no iron sights for $ 249.95

gcrank1 · « **Reply #51 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:28:38 PM »

Regarding the post several up about trimming back the 444 brass & loading as a 44Mag.
There is no need to trim it back. If you use 44 Mag data it will actually have lower pressures and velocity (by only a bit) due to the much larger case volume. You really do want to fill the available chamber with that long brass and get the bullet up to the 'throat' or ball seat (whichever you want to call it) just shy of the origin of the rifling.
This is like using 38Spl loads in your .357Max brass for the re-chambered gun.

IndianawantZme · « **Reply #52 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:36:30 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on January 25, 2010, 01:28:38 PM

Regarding the post several up about trimming back the 444 brass & loading as a 44Mag.
There is no need to trim it back. If you use 44 Mag data it will actually have lower pressures and velocity (by only a bit) due to the much larger case volume.

I suppose this highly depends upon which powder you use . Some slow burnng powders such as W296 carry explicit WARNINGS about using at MAX load , full cases and very tight crimp to AVOID detonation .

gcrank1 · « **Reply #53 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:49:53 PM »

Yes, of course, one should always follow the powder manufactures recommendations and warnings. That said, there are many safe reduced loads for any number of calibers that have been in use for years and thousands (perhaps millions ) of shots. See the Cast Bullet Assoc, or ASSRA, or the 'cowboy loads' used by SASS, etc. There is no shortage of proven, safe data. There is also the bozo who has to magnumize everything and gets away with it long enough to recommend his Buick Killer load to somebody else.
The easiest reduced loads for anybody is to look in a couple of reloading manuals for your caliber and use the STARTING loads. If you are curious take a look at the starting loads for the 444 and the top loads for the 44 Mag to see just how far apart they are.
If you are new to reloading always use the appropriate data. If youve been doing this longer you already know you are on your own when you go 'off data'.

JerryKo · « **Reply #54 on:** January 25, 2010, 02:00:39 PM »

You did good with the 45-70. We'll be waiting on that range report.

Jerry

IndianawantZme · « **Reply #55 on:** January 25, 2010, 04:49:01 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on January 25, 2010, 01:28:38 PM

Regarding the post several up about trimming back the 444 brass & loading as a 44Mag.
There is no need to trim it back. If you use 44 Mag data it will actually have lower pressures and velocity (by only a bit) due to the much larger case volume. You really do want to fill the available chamber with that long brass and get the bullet up to the 'throat' or ball seat (whichever you want to call it) just shy of the origin of the rifling.

My reasoning for trimming back .444 cases was to be able to purchase a .444 M Handi for use in PA and load special ammo for ir specifically for deer hunting in Indiana where the MAXIMUM case length is 1.625 inches , by loading 300 grain plus bullets seated out to fill the .625 space AND... "get the bullet up to the 'throat' or ball seat (whichever you want to call it) just shy of the origin of the rifling."..... ; as close as possible but did not know how shallow I might have to seat the bullet into the casing to achieve that IF it was possible at all .

I may only ever hunt Indiana once and or possibly not even fire a shot while I'm there . Using .444 M ammo for use on deer in PA would have been the primary usage of the firearm .

Then Tim suggested rechambering/reaming a .44Mag to .445Supermag to achieve the same thing .

The problem WAS that I really liked that .444 M Handi in stainless and cammo with a scope package that I thought was a good , like the looks of deal AND .444 would have been a better gun for hunting PA.

I've always admired the .444 Marlin cartridge .

I was trying to have the best for both worlds for two different states in one gun that I really liked the looks of and which happened to be a good bargain through hand loading especially for it .

I wasn't trying to wildcat a cartridge for frequent use or a reduced loading . I need something to meet the 1.625 " Max 0AL requirement , so reduced loads in a .444 casing won't work for me .
.

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #56 on:** January 25, 2010, 06:20:03 PM »

My wife got me a .44 a few years ago for our anniversary. I'd have to say that out to 150 yards you won't be able to tell the difference on any game shot with it. If it's going to be for your daughter I don't think she'll care for the recoil levels in the .444 or the .45-70. Quite frankly I wouldn't care for the recoil levels of some of the .45-70 stuff out there. The .44 mag has killed everything on this planet that walks when it was shot in a handgun. I can't see where it would lack any power needed when shot from a rifle.
For your daughter, go with the .44 mag.

BluDino · « **Reply #57 on:** January 30, 2010, 01:57:20 PM »

I had the same question and went with .45-70. You can load them down to pussycat loads or up to whatever your shoulder can stand. Don't let a little girl shoot any of these. Get her a .260 Kimber and she will shoot forever.