Author Topic: .38 Super ammo and brass (Read 1682 times)

Bitterroot Bob · « **on:** December 31, 2009, 05:21:01 AM »

Howdy,
I have a 1911 .38 Super on the way. I plan on buying a case (500 rounds) of factory stuff to break in and grow my brass supply. Any preferences? Aguila and Magtech seem to have the best deal, so far. A little more money gets me Federal American Eagle.
Also, who has the best defense load in the 140-150 grain spectrum?

Thanks,
Bitterroot Bob

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2009, 07:23:37 AM »

I've shot a lot of Mag Tech 130 FMJ and it seems pretty good, I use the brass for my 'hardball' load-130 grain plated round nose at 1,280 fps. I think the Winchester 130 FMJ-FP load is more accurate, and the flat point is stronger medicine than round nose if you need it.
Haven't shot any of the others mentioned, cause I mostly shoot handloads. I bought 500 pieces of Winchester plain brass and I can't seem to wear them out. I have an emergency reserve of 500 Remington nickel cases.
Most defensive loads are in the 125 grain range, Cor Bon for the hot stuff and Winchester Silvertips for the recoil sensitive.
Here's a .38 Super website for more info:
http://38super.net/

P.S. What kind of Super did you buy?

Bitterroot Bob · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2009, 08:35:58 AM »

Thanks for your input,
I have a deal on a new blued Taurus 1911. $519. I fugure that I really can't go wrong for that price.
I guess if I was to just buy brass I might try the Starline rimless stuff, as it makes more sense for the cartridge to headspace on the case-mouth, so why the rim? Or, can one put a crimp on the bullet with the rim?
Never ran into this quandry before.
I've always had a fascination with the .38 Super. Sort of like a .357 in an auto-loader. A 9mm with longer legs. You can't argue with the energy it delivers. I hope the gun works, and won't break me.

Bitterroot

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2009, 09:15:10 AM »

All modern Supers should headspace on the case mouth regardless of the rims. Your extractor will probably be set up for rimmed brass and rimless brass may cause extraction problems. Since you buying factory ammo, stick with rimmed brass.
You can use a taper crimp with the Super and still headspace on the case mouth. Avoid roll crimps or taper crimping more than .008". Some factory ammo will have a substantial crimp, some none at all.
With jacketed bullets I don't flare or expand the case mouths at all, I let my Redding competition bullet seater (highly recommended) seat the bullets without flare. This gives excellent bullet tension and no need to crimp. With lead or plated bullets I use an absolute minimum amount of flare and taper crimp just enough to bring the cases back down to .380"
I like to make up dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) and chamber them over and over to make sure the bullets aren't being set back in the cases.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2010, 02:13:16 AM »

Bob: You're going to have a ball with that 38 Super. Just as Hammerhead said, modern 38 supers are headspaced on the case mouth and althoughhe suggests the use of 38 Super brass I have found that miniscule rim to be of no use whatsoever.

I have a Bar-Sto barrel in addition to the Colt Series 70 upper I use when i swap slides on my Springfield to shoot the 38 super. I have used stock 38 Super brass and 9mm Magnum brass cut to length. I have shot Winchester 9x23mm, Winchester 38 Super ammo and have interspersed 9x23 and 38 Super in the same magazine without any problems what so ever.

The last time I ordered brass I ordered the 9x23 as it is thicker at the base and does not bulge under heavy loads. Some of my older 38 Super brass, which has been reloaded numerous times, should probably be canned but that's tough for reloaders to do, as you know.....

Fun and plinking loads can be pulled right from the older Lymna manuals - you can use 158 gn round nose for a lot. I believe Competetion Bullets, if they are still in business, makes 160 gn round nose in .355, .356 and .357 diameters. Some 38 Sueprs come with 38 caliber barrels, some with 9mm barrels. You may wish to slug your barrel to determine its actual diameter.

Personal defense and smallish game loads can use a 115-125 gn hp at anywhere from 1400-1500'/sec. I once took a south American Jaguar using a Charles Askins load of a 115 gn hp and H110 powder, and it worked. I also used that load, numerous times, on Javelina in both South America and Texas.

With proper tuning your 38 Super should be able to feed semi-wadcutters and then you would indeed have something very close to your 357 magnum semi-auto. It's one of my favorites. Mikey.

Bitterroot Bob · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2010, 04:44:30 AM »

Thanks to Hammerhead for the .38 Super website! Now I can study up.
It sounds like I just need the proper sizing die for the new barrel, God and Robin know I am well invested in .358" moulds in the 125-160 grain range. I even have a 75-grain wadcutter. Looks like an aspirin tablet. I have the standard 358311 Lyman RN and the Lyman cowboy 158 grain RNFP, as well as some lighter RN's. I never really saw myself as a reloader of autoloading pistol cartridges, but the Keith SWC works so well in the Norinco 1911, that I am spending part of my shooting day on my knees hunting the spent brass.
I wasn't aware that the 9x23 would work in the .38 Super. Natchez has Winchester ammo in both sizes and the 9x23 is the same price for Silvertip HP's. The thicker web would make the case a better candidate for +P loading than the Super. I just wonder about the extractor and how it functions with the smaller rim. I suppose that would depend on the depth of the groove in the case.
I wonder if standard 9mm Lyman Nutcracker dies would work with the Super. They don't full-length size brass, so as long as they would seat to the proper depth, I could be reloading in the semi-tractor. Looks like I'll need to spend some time on eBay hunting tools, again.

Bitterroot

rawhidekid · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2010, 05:21:40 AM »

Bitterroot Bob: I had the Taurus PT1911 38 Super and as long as you stay with standard loads you will do fine. Mine had the .355 barrel so I would hesitate trying .358 lead I did use .357 without problem but it was wheelweight other led bullets I bought leaded the barrel so bad I couldn't use them. The reason for light to medium loads is the Taurus has a nonsupported feed ramp and hot loads will buldge the cases. That is why I traded mine for an EAA with the fully supported feed ramp.(It will also shoot the store bought lead the Taurus barrel wouldn't.) Don't get me wrong I had no problems with the Taurus other than the fead ramp issue. It shot dead on and in fact the magazine would accomadate the full length 1.280 OAL bullets,(the EAA must be kept to 1.270 or less to feed propperly.) Since you reload some manualls list loadings up to 158 grain lead and my Taurus loved the 147 Grn .355 XTP bullets. Good luck and happy shooting.

HAMMERHEAD · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2010, 09:01:11 AM »

Since the Taurus has an un-ramped barrel I would be leery of using 9X23 Winchester factory ammo, it has a pressure ceiling of 55,000 psi compared to the Super's 36,500 psi.
With slower powders you can get great performance within the Super's limits.
Enjoy the pistol, mine shoots better than my best .357 revolver and does it with less recoil.

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2010, 12:40:59 AM »

I am anal. I use Winchester small rifle primers on the 9x23.
I like the Winchester brass and it was designed with the high pressures involved.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2010, 01:26:06 AM »

Bob: one more thing - if the Taurus has the same pattern extractor as other mil-spec 1911s you can always go to Brownells for a 9mm extractor and replace the one you have and you should not have any problems with extraction regardless of the cases you use. Mikey.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2010, 01:30:46 AM »

William: I went to bing search to see what is recommended to use in the 9X23 reloading. All loads I found used the Small Rifle primers. So if you are using the right primers, how are you anal?

rawhidekid · « **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2010, 01:40:48 AM »

Mikey: Have you done any shooting with the 90 Grn at 1550fps out of your 38 Super? My Lyman #47 lists a 90 Grn using HS-6 for 30,500 cup at 1550 FPS. Just wondered as I believe you were experimenting back as far as 2003.

Bitterroot Bob · « **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2010, 02:27:17 AM »

Hey guys,
After spending some time on the .38 Super website, I think I'll try the Aguila for starters. I looked through the Lyman books and there is a 132-grain swc mould that looks pretty good.
Anybody find a good use for Blue Dot in the Super? It sure doesn't work in my .41 Magnum Marlin. Maybe I can burn it in the automatic. AA#9 looks like a good one for the 1160-grain, and AA#7 shows up well, too.
I'm pretty satisfied with the factory ballistics. I knew it was fast, but it is FAST. I can live with 1230! I'd like to load heaavier, though. Seems to me that a case that size should start with a 140-grain and go up from there. I have plenty of 9mm.

Bitterroot

rawhidekid · « **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2010, 03:33:36 AM »

Bitterroot Bob: My Lyman 47th edition has Blue Dot listed as the top powder for the 38 Super. In all bullet weights it is the top performer. In a 147 grn cast it pushes 1061fps w/31,200cup. With 158 grn cast, 1133fps w/28,400 cup. My new Hornady 7th edition lists a 147 grn XTP at 1100 fps w Blue Dot. If you want to use hot loads I recommend the Shooting Star38 super Comp brass. It is made stronger at the web so you don't have to worry as much about non supported chamber at feed ramp and also rimles to feed better from the mag.

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2010, 12:40:56 AM »

Rawhide
I guess I am because many don't think it necessary and don't do it.
Me? What the heck do I know? I read what the boys say and try and follow their advice.
I am sure that much of what I do is overkill but I am anal enough to keep on keeping on doing it.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2010, 01:43:32 AM »

Rawhidekid - I started experimenting back in the 70s with Charles Askins type loads. I never went with the 90 gn 380 hp bullets, I stuck withthe more popular 115 and 125 gn loads. His powder charges using H110 powder easily got the 115 gn jacketed hp to 1450'/sec; if I wanted faster I would use SR4756 or if I wanted heavier I would use a 125 gn slug and 1 grain less H110 powder.

I tried using the 90 gn slug on Javelina without much success - even though they were/are smallish animals the slugs were not very effective even at high speeds and would, as best we could tell, usually fill with body materials and continue on as a fmj would. Increasing the bullet weight by 35 gns in a 9mm bore and slowing the bullet commensureate with additional weight would really do a job on those little piggies.

My favorite fun and plinking loads with the 38 suepr is with the 158-160 gn rn or rnfp slugs at between 1100 - 1150'/sec. This is below max load with Unique and easy on me and the pistol; less blast and crack than with the 357 at the same range. jmtcw.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2010, 04:21:00 AM »

Mikey: Were those 158 - 160 grn lead or fmj? I have shot some wheelweight 150 swc with good resuls, but kept the speed down to 900 to stop leading worry. I might find some copper coated at the next gunshow but that is iffy.

Mikey · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2010, 02:21:10 AM »

Rawhidekid - nope, those were cast slug. I believe I purchased them from Competetion Bullets, and specifically ordered 160 gn cast round nose in .356 diameter. If your wheelweight 150 gn swc slugs cycle reliably thorugh your action, I would harden them up a bit as you can safely drive them a bunch faster. HTH.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2010, 05:55:50 AM »

Once agian, thanks Mikey. Always good info from you.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:01:31 AM »

William: If the published loads call for SRP I would use them and not worry about what anyone on line said. Following published data is deffinatly not anal. God Bless and keep you safe.

I almost forgot: Hope everyone had a great New Year.

williamlayton · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2010, 12:19:55 AM »

This has turned to a most interesting conversation and I am really enjoying it.
It is interesting what people percieve in their minds and what actually is.
I have been reloading Zero plated bullets for both my 9x23 & .38Supers for some times now.
Nothing special about the reloads and I am not a a hot rodder. they are round nose bullets. Shooting loads.
What I carry in them is factory loads--not for any particular reason except I just don't want a round nose bullet in a 9mm/.38 for self defense. OH, it will work but I prefer hollw points of some type.
Mikey and Rawhide and others have brought up some good thought I would like conversation on.
Mikey is a great evangelist for cast and flat nosed, semi-wadcutter, bullets.
Mikey--for those like me--what tuning do you percieve as necessary to optomize reliability in a 1911 pattern weapon shooting flat nosed semi-wadcutters?
I have not found any reliability concerns using what some think of as 9mm or as .38 caliber bullets from a .38 platform or a .38super platform or a 9x23 platform.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2010, 01:11:26 AM »

Hi William: I believe that to get semi-wadcutter slugs to feed reliably you should probably have the feed ramp polished, at the least. In addition, I would make certain the bulelts are seated deeply enough to guarantee functioning - similar to properly seating a cast slug in a 45 for a 1911 platform.

I think the 150-160 gn rn cast slugs for practice, plinkin' or whatever are just about as good as you can get in the 38 Super - you can drive them just as fast as you can drive the same bullet from a 4" 357 if you want to or you can drive them just fast enough to cycle the action and have some fun.

There used to be a Lyman 133 gn semi-wad, bullet # 358480 and only once did I have a handful of those I picked up at a show - they worked fine as long as I seated them properly to headspace on the case mouth in a Bar-Sto barrel I own. I think one of the best slugs yet might be the Lyman 155 gn 358156 gas checked slug - this would have to be sized properly, like to .356, and seated properly to keep pressures down, but you can always load it down to around 1100'/sec for a fun load or use 9x23 brass if you're going to run them hot.

I have not checked the LBT style availabilities for the 9mm/38 Super/38 Spl/357 bores but there may be one that really tickles your fancy.

I would think that with the quality 1911s you have that they should feed and function reliably - most all the work that goes into slickin' a 1911 in 38 Super has most likely been already completed on your pistols so it should be just a matter of putting to gether the loads you want to shoot and trying them out.

Hope this helps. I am somewhat anxious to get back to reloading fun stuff but it is so dang cold outside it is just no fun trying to keep a cold room warm so I can reload........

rawhidekid · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2010, 03:43:00 AM »

Mikey: I use a small electric space heater to heat my loading room. As for reliably feeding the swc design, I usually set the bullet to the top of brass evan with the crimp groove, just no crimping. Works for me. With the 1911 I used to make sure there was at least a 1/16th of lead above the top of the brass to act as a cussion to slide on the ramp with truncetted cone style bullets. I have seen guys try to load these without the lead above the edge and it usally catches on the feeed ramp.

Bitterroot Bob · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2010, 01:18:56 PM »

Hey guys,
Now I'm wondering why I waited so long to add the Super to the herd. I already have the 358156 Thompson mould, and a 358311 160-gr RN, too. A .358480 SWC mould is on the way! I'll check my supply of bullet sizing dies to see if I have a .357" or a .356".
The gun is at the store now, so I have an errand to run on Saturday. Probably have to take someone to dinner...

Bitterroot Bob

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2010, 12:04:44 AM »

Bob - wonder no more, or keep wondering at how much fun you're having/going to have with the Super. I would follow the Rawhidekid's advice regarding bullet seating, and make certain you have a .356 sizer. Yes, dinner will probably save you......... Mikey.