Author Topic: Muzzleloaders and Recoil  (Read 1110 times)

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Offline RandyWakeman

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Muzzleloaders and Recoil
« on: December 17, 2003, 10:17:15 AM »
MUZZLELOADERS AND RECOIL

In a recent phone conversation with Chuck Hawks, Chuck remarked how popular the recoil information tables are on his site. How many cajillion hits it had I don’t recall, but it was enough for me to quickly run out of fingers and toes. As there seems to be a great interest in recoil, I’ll make a few brief comments that might be of general help. Apparently, more of us are recoil-sensitive than we would like to freely admit to. Please take these comments as those of a general nature, as this is not breaking any new ground.

Even though we might obsess about “free recoil tables,” that isn’t what we really care about—it is felt recoil that gives us concern, and that is subjective by nature. There is certainly a big difference about how “kick” is absorbed by our bodies—a pop in the face feels a lot different than a similar shot to the shoulder. Action type makes a difference, particularly in gas semi-auto guns, as the primary recoil pulse is lengthened. Same force, just applied over a longer period of time. That is not a factor in muzzleloading, as the actions are all fixed breech. The cumulative effects of recoil are well known to those who have had five or six hundred shot days through the sporting clays courses, but that also does not apply as heavily to the smokepole enthusiast.

All things being equal, a gun that fits you the best will have less felt recoil. Absorbing the jolt with your torso and shoulder is much more pleasant than deflecting a bit of it with your face. A longer stocked gun will generally have less felt recoil, as it promotes a better stock weld. Also important is the size and shape of the buttplate or recoil pad. A larger surface area in proper contact with your shoulder can reduce felt recoil; if you’ve ever had a thin, knife-bladed stock slice into your body, you’ll know it is no fun. Naturally, a good recoil pad (Kick-Eez, Terminator, etc.) can attenuate recoil, calming a jab into a push. Anyway, aside from stock fit, there are only a few major factors:

GUN WEIGHT

No way around it, heavy guns kick less. If you increase the gun’s weight, the recoil drops by about a 1:1 ratio. A twenty-five percent increase in gun weight, you have about a twenty-five percent reduction in recoil. What may be a delight in the field can easily be a pain at the range. But, we all are going to practice relentlessly with out hunting loads, aren’t we? Not a factory for stand hunting, but if trekking across ten miles of tundra is your style of hunting, it sure makes a difference at the end of the day.

PAYLOAD AND VELOCITY

Both ejecta (bullet + sabot + wad) and muzzle velocity affect recoil on about a 2:1 ratio. Drop your velocity or bullet weight by ten percent, you’ll net about a TWENTY percent reduction in recoil. This area is where you can experiment, and find a load that does not bother you. You can still enjoy a zippy load by use of a 200 grain Dead Center sabot, for example-- yet you are reducing your recoil by a huge amount as compared to a 300 grain sabot with the same velocity, over SIXTY-SIX percent. To give you some rough idea of 100 yard energy, .40 / 50 Dead Center sabot, assuming an 1800 fps muzzle velocity: that 200 grain bullet gives you over 1100 foot pounds of energy into your deer, far more than the universally recommended minimum of 800 fpe for a humane harvest. No problem at all, assuming good bullet placement. The 300 grain, 1800 fps .44/50 Dead Center does give you more, over 1750 fpe on target at 100 yards. The caveat is, all the extra energy in the world does you no good if not put in the right place. Our mild 200 grain load still carries over 1000 fpe out to 140 yards, much farther than average whitetail hunting ranges. There is, of course, a great deal of room in the middle to tailor a combination to your individual needs. Muzzleloading, by nature, can have less velocity loads than center-fire loads—with correspondingly less recoil. Another great reason (excuse) to enjoy muzzleloading!

Since you are a muzzleloader, and by nature a reloader, you have lots of room to experiment with a load that induces no flinch, is fun to shoot all day, yet is still a terrifically effective hunting load. Just the ticket to help convince your wife, daughter, or younger son that there really can be “no pain, yet gain” with muzzleloading.

PROPELLANT

Here’s an area normally overlooked, but can make a difference. Blackpowder and blackpowder substitutes are horrifically inefficient propellants; fully half of the powder charge does not change to gas, remaining a solid all the while. That gets pushed out your muzzle as well, and adds to recoil. Blackpowder substitutes that are less dense (Pyrodex) or less dense and more energetic (Triple 7) weigh less than black powder, and are softer shooting powders. Triple 7 loose powder requires the least amount by weight to yield a certain velocity, and I’ve found it to be the softest shooting blackpowder substitute out there. In the case of the Savage 10-ML, the only smokeless muzzleloader, now virtually all of the powder charge converts to gas, and that will give you remarkably less recoil for the same muzzle velocity.

FINALLY:

There’s certainly nothing wrong with using a padded shooting vest, or popping on a “PAST” pad at the bench. After all, we are trying to punish some paper, not ourselves. For those who have a touch of bursitis in the shoulder joint area, or just don’t care to see their lighter family members knock themselves silly, there are more than a couple ways reduce felt recoil to the point that does not detract at all from our shooting and hunting. Anyway, that’s how I feel about it, which is good, very good indeed. I hope you do as well-- thank you for your kind attenuation!

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2003, 12:39:54 PM »
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PROPELLANT

Here’s an area normally overlooked, but can make a difference.


Are you saying that the accepted formula for calculating recoil might not be 100 percent accurate, especially when comparing powders as markedly different as a blackpowder substitute and a smokeless in the same gun.?

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2003, 01:22:36 PM »
Of course-- the SAMMI formula is based on smokeless powder only, there is no generally accepted "blackpowder formula," as none that I have ever read  quantifies the effect of 3-pellet loads that partially remain uncombusted all the way down the bore.

The Lyman formula, also smokeless directed, accomodates powder weights as well. Even sticking solely with that, there is a reduction when using a smokeless Savage charge (42 grains VT N110) vs. the far heavier Pyrodex load needed to approach the same velocities.

A related article, from our friends at Shotgun Report:

http://www.shotgunreport.com/Articles/ReducingRecoil/ReducingRecoil.htm

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2003, 01:28:37 PM »
So, correct me if I'm wrong, basically what you are saying is that you cannot within 100 percent accuracy compare the free recoil of the Savage with a smokeless and Pyrodex load using the Lyman formula.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2003, 01:41:01 PM »
Not with triple pellet loads, to be sure. Is it only powder weight, or ejecta? Somewhere in between?

The crux of the biscuit is not "free recoil" at all-- it is felt recoil. Anyone can compare the two, in their own terms, by switching from pellets to smokeless in the 10Ml Savage-- and experience the difference for themselves.

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2003, 01:42:53 PM »
And the answer to my question is?  Yes or no?  Just curious.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2003, 02:05:59 PM »
Quote from: sheephunterab
So, correct me if I'm wrong, basically what you are saying is that you cannot within 100 percent accuracy compare the free recoil of the Savage with a smokeless and Pyrodex load using the Lyman formula.


I'll go farther-- you cannot compare ANY loads with "100% accuracy" using the Lyman formula, it is only a guide. They can, however, be measured and observed. It is as simple as the difference between calculated ballistic coefficients, and observed. Calculated barrel pressures, or piezo-electric measured pressures, and calculated engine horsepowers, or those measured at the real wheels by dynamometers are two other examples.

Too many variables are missing from the formula found Lyman Reloading Handbook, 43rd Edition:

E = 1/2 (Wr / 32) (Wb x MV + 4700 x Wp / 7000 x Wr)squared.

Where E = recoil Energy in ft. lbs., Wr = Weight of rifle in pounds, Wb = Weight of bullet in grains, MV = Muzzle Velocity of bullet in feet-per-second, Wp = Weight of powder in grains.


Pressure from the primer is missing, ejecta is not defined, and recoil velocity is not included. This addresses only the primary recoil pulse, not the secondary jet pulse of escaping gas, nor the pressure curve of the specific propellant that controls it.

The message was and is that felt recoil is what really matters, not the specific formula generated number-- and the very best "instrument" for that is your own shoulder and upper body.

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2003, 02:12:09 PM »
Thanks Randy! That's what I suspected. :D

Offline sheephunterab

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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2003, 02:56:04 PM »
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Pressure from the primer is missing, ejecta is not defined, and recoil velocity is not included. This addresses only the primary recoil pulse, not the secondary jet pulse of escaping gas, nor the pressure curve of the specific propellant that controls it.


I was under the impression that ejecta was the total weight of the powder, wad and projectile. Is this wrong?