.50 or .54 prb

[trkyman1]

I'm going to buy a new flintlock. I have two .50 cal. right now. I was leaning towards the 54 in a lyman great plains. Which would be the better 100yrd caliber for deer. Is the trajectory much different with the 54 than the 50? I'm interested in hearing from experienced people that use or have both. This will be for prb shooting .

[flintlock]

I prefer and have hunted with a .54 flintlock since the late 80s...I've killed deer out to 125 yards with her...Remember, a .50 can't do anything a .54 can't do...

[necchi]

54!
It'll out do a 50 in every aspect, hands down, all day long and in the dark.

[trkyman1]

Ok what loads are you guys shooting for the prb?

[flintlock]

I started with 120grs of Goex FF years ago, went down to 100 and now I'm down to 80grs of Goex FFF...

One thing to remember about real black powder, about 55% of it is left over as residue...Some blows out the muzzle but a lot doesn't...If you want to reduce fouling left in the bore, use FFF instead of FF as it burns cleaner and stay with 75-90grs of powder...

[trkyman1]

Thanks for the info. I thought 3f was for 50 cal. and under. It makes more sense to use less powder and get the same results. I actually thought about switching  from 2f to 3f in my 50 cal.

[nessmuk101]

Go with the .54.  I use 80 gr. of Goex 3F for dear and 100 gr. of Goex 3F for bear and elk.  I also use the PRB all the time.

[flintlock]

When I started in the 70s, the "rule" was FFF for .45 and below and FF for .50 and above...That "rule" was dreamed up in the '40s or '50s...The 1940s and 1950s...See back in the 1700-1850 time frame you had cannon grade powder and firearm powder...You used what you had in both the pan and barrel...Much of this stuff we old timers have had to relearn...

At any rate, with today's metals it's perfectly safe to use FFF in larger calibers...It makes things easier for me because I use FFF in both the pan and down the barrel...

[trkyman1]

Thanks flintlock for clearing that up for me. I too would like to use the same powder for both and when I use up my can of 2f I will switch to 3f. Looks like it will be the .54 cal in the lyman grat plains.

[DennyRoark]

3f just burns quicker, resulting in higher pressures in a heavier (slower starting) bullet.  Load it down a bit, then find what shoots most accurate.  You'll find that 3f goes craaaack, 2f goes boooom.  3f will burn a little cleaner, too.

[trkyman1]

Thanks again. I will start at 75-80gr.

[deadrabbit]

My 50 cal shooting RBalls (with a RB barrel) with 85 gr of 3f shot like crap, but just cutting it to 80 gr made it very accurate.  So maybe starting low and working your way up would be smart.

I dont have an opinion on which is better, the 50 or 54 as they are both good.  I do use my 50's more but thats cuz they are lighter guns.  I'd like to try a 54 in 15/16" sometime. (TC that is) as my 54 is a 1"

[StrawHat]

My short answer would be to step up to the 58 and leave the others behind but that isn't what you asked.

Of the two mentioned, I'd go with the 54.  With balck powder and PRB the easiest way to increase "power" is to change the weight of the projectile.  So, go to a bigger ball.

[nw_hunter]

Thanks flintlock for clearing that up for me. I too would like to use the same powder for both and when I use up my can of 2f I will switch to 3f. Looks like it will be the .54 cal in the lyman grat plains.

Several good reasons for using 3 f! Another good reason is......More "BANG" for the buck. You will use about 10% less than 2f. Work up a load YOUR rifle likes best. I use 65 grains in a 62 cal, and get good groups, and penetration out to 75 yards.

Bigger is better with muzzleloaders! Go for the 54, or better still, go for a smoothbore 62 cal.
Load it with shot, and go shoot some squirrels with it after the deer hunt.

[Canuck Bob]

I just bought a .54 lefty Deerstalker and am very pleased with the quality for the price.

The only thing diffrent between the 2 calibers is the availability of different projectiles for the .50.

Personally I've realized that I bought a flintlock muzzleloader and will shoot PRB, I prefer patched ball because I'v never seen a square ball but convention uses PRB.

The beauty of muzzleloaders is the ility to load up and down the power curve at will.  Therefore the .54 will match the .50 in anything including conicals and sabots and for hunting it enjoys a significant advantage.  .54 seems a win win for me.

[trkyman1]

Yes Im hoping to order my gpr in .54 this week. Starting to get very itchy to try it out.

[flintlock]

Pick up a .530 mold and get some scrap lead...My dentist has given me about 50 pounds...When you get your teeth x-rayed the plastic they put in your mouth had lead inside...Melt them down on a Coleman in an empty soup can, get a dipper and some bees wax or SnoSeal to remove the doss...Buy a dipper and roll your own balls...I make them for my .40 and .54 then I don't have to worry about buying balls...

[gcrank1]

Had both, the .54 for a hunter will have more capacity and carry better in the wind at distance than a .50 cal.
Years ago I graphed the breech pressures/velocities of 2 and 3 Fg from info in Lyman's Black Powder Handbook.
For a given charge 3 Fg will be about 30% less than that of 2 Fg for similar velocities. From this you can see that for top loads it may be wiser to use 2 Fg because of the pressure spike and for less than top loads use the 3 Fg at about a 30% reduction in volumetric measure.
By all means do follow the maximum load recommendations of the manufacturer. If they say max 110gr. FFg do not think that you can substitute 110gr. FFFg. But if you reduce that 110 by 30% your max pressures will be similar.
If you doubt it, do the math & make the graph.

[Sluice]

In PRB guns bigger is better and if I just had one gun it would be in .54. I shoot both calibers but limit my range to 75 yards as that is about as far as I can reliably shoot a deer with open sights, others can certainly do better.

I started out using 2F in both calibers but have switched to 3F using 65 grn in the .50 and 75 grns in the .54. You will have to fool around with loads and patches to see what your gun likes.

Both of my guns are T/C's but Lyman is a great choice.

[Dances with Geoducks]

Guess you guys have not heard of the Davenport formula.

Its will give you the optimum load for your barrel. Not the most accurate.
What it will tell you is if you are wasting powder.
In my 45 cal I used to use 55gr 3f (1600fps) for all my targets below 100 yards, then Id double the charge (110gr 2000fps)
for 100-150 shots.

After running my barrel measurements through the formula, I found that 75gr got me 2000fps, and everything else was wasted.

So now I have a custom made powder measure that has a mark for 55gr, and filled is 75grs.

Below is a copy of an e-mail I save for giving out the formula, its not as hard as it looks.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Cubic area of the bore would be done this way:

Take the bore diameter( or groove diameter and then calculate both cubic areas. Then subtract the area created by the lands, to get the actual true Cubic area of a rifled barrel. Generally, the difference is measured in a couple of grains, and is not worth the extra brain power used.) and divide it by 2 to get the Radius of the bore. (r)


Area of a circle is determined by the formula A= PiR Squared. Pi= 3.1416. So, Multiply the Radius by itself(to square it) and then multiply that number by Pi to find the area of the circle the diameter of the Bore of your gun.


Now Multiply that number( area) times the 11.5 to get the amount of powder in one inch of your bore. Multiply that number by the length of your barrel to get the total capacity for your whole barrel.


Example:


( .50 cal. divided by 2 = .25; times .25 = .0625; times 3.1416= .19635; times 11.5 =2.2580; times 28(barrel length)=63.22 grains of powder.)


If you want to know the cubic space inside one inch of a .50 caliber rifle, you can use .50 as the diameter, or measure the actual land to land dimension, and then the groove diameter, and then the groove depth, to work out EXACT the cubic area of that particular bore.


Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:

.50 divided by 2 = .25

.25 x .25 = .0625

.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635

.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580

2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.

__________________

Assume you are shooting a 28 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel. The cubic area of that bore will be 28 x .19635 = 5.4978 cubic inches.


Now, because you do have grooves in that barrel, you can refine that a bit more.


 Assume that the actual groove diameter of your gun is .501" ( my .50 caliber rifle's actual bore diameter)


Run the Davenport formula and you get:

.501 divided by 2 = .2505

.2505 x .2505 = .0627502

.0627502 x 3.1416 = 0.197136

0.197136 x 11.5 = 2.267064

2.267064 x 28 = 63.477792 grains of powder.


A cube of anything is determined by multiply the height times the width, times the depth, of the object. When you need to compute the cubic area of a cylinder, or other non-square object, it gets a bit more involved.

Now assume that the bore diameter is actually .490, and groove depth is .0055"( .501 minus .490 divided by 2 = .0055")( again, my gun's actual bore diameter)

Now assume that there are 6 lands and grooves, of equal width. The circumference of that bore( .490) is .769692" Divide that by 12( 6 grooves and 6 lands) and you get the width of the lands and grooves to be .064141".


 To adjust the cubic area to correct for these "obstructions", you need to subtract from 5.519808 the area occupied by those 6 lands, that are .064141" wide, and .0055" deep.

So, multiply 6 time times .064141 times .0055 = .0003527"

5.519808 - .0003527 = 5.5194553 Cubic Inches


______________________________

If we ran the davenport formula using the Land to land diameter( bore diameter) of .490, we get:

.490 divided by 2 - ..245

.245 x .245 = .060025

.060025 x 3.1416 =.1885745 square inches. ( for a circle that is .490 in diameter.)

.1885745 x 11.5 = 2.1686067 grains per inch

2.168067 x 28 = 60.720987 grains of powder.


So, if you use the smaller diameter of the bore( land to land[.490]) The Davenport formula will give you only

60.72 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.

If you use the nominal .50 caliber, the formula gives you

63.22 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.

And, if you do all the math needed to actually get the ACTUAL cubic area of that barrel, you get a figure in between those two, 60.7, vs. 63.2! That is a difference of 2.5 grains, and half( assume that the lands and grooves are of equal width) that is only 1.25 grains!( Approx. 61.95 Grains!) Not enough to bother about, NO?




 

[necchi]

"Guess you guys have not heard of the Davenport formula."

Cheesh,, Dances/With,,,it's a muzzle loader not a cannon

it's not rocket science either,,

Load the darn thing with a set charge, then work up in 5grn increments for the best group and that's about it. I have yet to meet a deer that was concerned about whether it got killed with 1200fps or 2000fps,,I myself am WAY less worried about velocity than accuracy. These aren't cf cartridge guns, it's 300 year old techniques that haven't changed much

[DennyRoark]

    Man, I always started with a light load and just worked my way up in 10's then back in 5's...