4895 Question

[KeepTryin]

OK, in the mail today are two reloading manuals. Lyman's 49th edition and Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd edition... I'm digging in to them...

Earlier I had asked on here (removing cap, waving it, thanking all for their helpful advice) about using a common powder for .30-30 and .30-06. 170 flatnoses in the .30-30 and pointy ones in the .30-06. Remmie Core-Lockts would be nice as I have deer-dropping experience with those two.

SO, both manuals show 4895 working for these particular applications. The Lyman manual sez Hogdon recently aquired IMR. Lee's book shows IMR4895 and H4895 having different load data for 180gr. jacketed for the .06... What gives? is H4895 that different from IMR4895? Seems confusing. The load data for these two (that agree) are for IMR. So should I try to find a pound of IMR4895 as opposed to Hogdon? This seems odd.

I got the Lee scale from Sciaber and have been fooling with it. It does seem to take it's time settling down but I have it away from heat ducts on a sturdy bench so it ain't too bad.

Thanks In Advance,
Tryin

[countryroads]

I use a piece of software called "load from a disk", and many of the loads for a given cartridge/bullet weight allow you to choose either IMR4895 or H4895 for the load.  The software recommends the same weight of powder for either (for all of the loads that I have checked, including for the 30-06).  I think that it might be a distinction without a practical difference.  In my experience, H4895 meters better (fewer cut grains).

[Graybeard]

They are fairly close but are not the same. Both are later approximations of old military pull down surplus powder from long ago. Some loads in some manuals might show same weight for both but that will not apply in all cases so use data for the one you have from whatever manual you are using.

Also note that not all bullets of same weight take the same data.

[necchi]

Hodgdon owns Winchester and IMR but they maintained the formula for most of the original powders.
IMR 4895 and H4895 have slightly different burn rates on the charts. (period) See this burn rate table? It's the same list all over the place, this ones current, and from here you can link to Hodgons load data site, it's really handi once you figgure out how ta use it,

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Close yes ,but different. It is a PITA looking at different data from different makers ain't it,,a delema for me also..Ya just gotta keep diggin,,keep it safe man  

[1sourdough]

 I like & use H 4895 for a fair amount of rifle loads. I know they are close but I always use Hodgdon data for H4895. Some manuals lean towards certain brands of powder. I have plenty to cross reference, then there is always the Hodgdon website if needed.

[gandog56]

They are fairly close but are not the same. Both are later approximations of old military pull down surplus powder from long ago. Some loads in some manuals might show same weight for both but that will not apply in all cases so use data for the one you have from whatever manual you are using.

Which is why Hodgdon did not just make them into one powder and still has the H and IMR versions out.

[gandog56]

And to further confuse things there is some British made RG 4895 powder out there, but this is supposed to be pretty much the same as the IMR and you can use the IMR recipes for it.

[KeepTryin]

I downloaded some Hogdon data and yes, it shows the two 4895's listed for the .06 with a 180gr. bullet at H=41 grains and IMR=45 grains.  The IMR is the one that cross-applies to the 30/30 application I had in mind so I guess a pound of IMR4895 will be my first purchase. After I triple check my other two manuals again, of course... so much to learn.

Thanks for all the input,
Tryin

[necchi]

After I triple check my other two manuals again, of course... so much to learn.

  I gotta chukle on that one!! Man do I do THAT!

Dont forget to right it down, cause when ya git to the store your gonna start second guessing yourself again! Ask how I know!

I met a feller in THE isle at Cabelas,,during the yakkin he kinda sheepishly reached in his pocket for a list to show me what he was talking about,,shoulda seen the grin he got when I pulled my list-w/notes out to show him! 

[Graybeard]

I started reloading for centerfires in the late 60s I think far too long ago to remember the year and I kept no records from those days that would allow me to go back and check. In all those years I've purchased a grand total of one pound of H4895 and none of IMR4895. I still have that old box somewhere I think and it still has a little of the powder in the bottom where ever it is. It has just never figured into my reloading plans.

Another very popular powder that is at or near the top of many folks' list is the various 4350s and again I've used it but not nearly so much as many other powders and 4831 has been used less by me than 4350. I do keep both those on hand tho and do often try them with rounds they are appropriate for but I really don't like to load logs when there is a fine grain or ball powder that will do the same job so most often something else is what I wind up using.

I was reading an article in a magazine by some writer whose name I don't recall about his favorite powders and what he could get by with if he had to. He listed three rifle and two handgun powders. All are on my shelves but if I were picking my favorite five as he did to be honest none of his selections would have been mine. It's all a matter of what we get used to as our reloading careers progress. As to reloading manuals I long ago lost count but I'm sure I could lay my hands on at least 50 maybe more likely several more if I went looking. When developing a load for a new rifle or handgun I'll most commonly compare at least three to five manuals some times more.

[possum6]

Don't mean to hijack the thread but has anyone noticed how much alike H4895 and Varget look? I use both and noticed the other day. I thought I had grabbed the wrong powder.

[necchi]

Yup, I even put a few grains of each in the pan,,just to see if I could tell the differance  

After that I took my 3 different powders, (yup all 3) and put them all on a shelf away from the bench. I will never have more than one powder even near the bench whilst I'm loading,,I'm going to start that habit right now.
It's not going to be a big deal to walk across the room,,and keep the jug I'm using on the bench while I'm using it,,

[Doug B.]

Here's something to throw out. Appears as though IMR 4895 is a "dirty" powder in my firearms when I compare it to the other powders I use. How does H 4895 compare to  IMR 4895 as far as residue left over after firing?

[cwlongshot]

After that I took my 3 different powders, (yup all 3) and put them all on a shelf away from the bench. I will never have more than one powder even near the bench whilst I'm loading,,I'm going to start that habit right now.
It's not going to be a big deal to walk across the room,,and keep the jug I'm using on the bench while I'm using it,,

VERY GOOD ADVICE!! 
It's something that should be engrained in every re-loader, no matter what the experience level. Don't forget to check and double check the powder hopper and trickler before you put that powder away either.

CW

[gandog56]

I was reading an article in a magazine by some writer whose name I don't recall about his favorite powders and what he could get by with if he had to. He listed three rifle and two handgun powders. All are on my shelves but if I were picking my favorite five as he did to be honest none of his selections would have been mine. It's all a matter of what we get used to as our reloading careers progress. As to reloading manuals I long ago lost count but I'm sure I could lay my hands on at least 50 maybe more likely several more if I went looking. When developing a load for a new rifle or handgun I'll most commonly compare at least three to five manuals some times more.

And I was just reading an article this month. He says his favorite was go to powder for most of his rifles was 4350, followed by 4895 (Ain't real sure if he said H or IMR) Favorite pistol powders were Unique and Bullseye. Said these were the absolute most versitile powders with the most loads for most calibers.

[KeepTryin]

Well, curiously my first smokless powder purchase has turned out to be a pound of Varget. Lee's second shows the stuff working with 170 jacketeds in a 30/30 and 180's in the 30/06.

Just got back from the 'big town' of Eau Claire tonight - Scheel's was cleaned out of large rifle primers, no idea when they were going to get any, and they hadn't seen either type of 4895 since October. So I bought some Varget as they had 12 cans Thursday and were down to 8 this afternoon. Wasn't keen on paying HazMat mailordering the stuff, but I probably will have to anyway with primers if I'm ever to obtain any, yes? Curiously they had plenty of pistol and small rifle primers...

Oh well, it seems Varget is recognized for the 30/06 in a few places, like my Lee book and Hogdon's website info. Lyman's 49th doesn't mention Varget very much that I could see, not for either of my apps. For stuff like the 250/3000 and that sort of thing they do.

[KeepTryin]

Also I looked at the manuals (at Scheel's) and realized that Varget was listed in both Lee and Lyman as working in 7.62x54R of which I have a few. So maybe I'll get some dies for those. I've got some SP rounds (Wolf Gold and Winchester) around that is brass and boxer-primed so what the heck.

Be entertained as I continue to rationalize my purchase of a can of Varget...

[Sweetwater]

Varget is very well liked by a lot of guys on here. I just got my first can and before I got it opened, one of my pals traded me out of it. They were down to 8 cans from 12 in less than two days? I hope you bought at least half of them! Loading for a bunch of cartridges that take that much powder, you can go through a can in a short time. You'll find Varget in the Speer manual, also. No shortage of data sources.
Do the math: 30-06 w/180's = max 47gr. 7000gr/lb divided by 47gr/load =148.9 loads or 7.5 boxes.
            Your 30-30 w/170's = max 33gr. 7000/33= 212 loads or 10.6 boxes of shells.
This gives you some inventory, but has used up two cans of powder, and you still want to load some 7.62x54R w/180's = max 46.5gr or basically the same as the 30-06. 150.5 loads or 7.5 boxes.

Ok, I've got 8lbs each of H4895Extreme and IMR 4895. Just to throw another variable into the 4895 pile. H4895Extreme and H4895 take the same load data, but the Extreme version is (according to Hodgdon) less bothered by temperature change. Some of this I bought, and some I inherited, but I do use them all. If all you are given for data is a max load, you need to start 10 percent lower and work up a half a grain at a time and so on until you find where you fit in the pressure area. You will probably find your most accurate load comes before you reach max pressure. If you have access to a chronograph, that can help show you where you are in velocity. Velocity is a product of pressure over an interval of time. If your powder is too slow, it won't all burn and will be dirty. Not sure if one is dirtier than the other. To me it's all dirtier than my white t-shirt, so it's all dirty.

And 4895 is NOT my favorite powder, but it will work, as will Varget and a host of others. Most medium burning powders will work in your choice of cartridges. Just a matter of locating the data. When powder is plentiful, you can go to the store and buy what you want. But when it comes in short supply, you have to buy what there is and learn to make it work. It all goes bang! Keep it safe!

Regards,
Sweetwater