Author Topic: 450 Nitro Express 3.25" (Read 4151 times)

miyata · « **on:** December 29, 2009, 10:47:46 AM »

I'm thinking about a new project based on a Ultra Hunter SS 45/70.

I know the 45/120 is the sensible way to go, but I am curious about the 450 NE 3.25".

Hornady makes cases and ammo in this calibre, but only in the traditional 480gr configuration (I'm guessing so that your double rifle always places the projectile at the same spot).

Ballistically it's probably much the same as a 45/120.... the case capacity may be slightly more, but I doubt there's much difference. The length is the same, the base is very slightly larger.

Apart from reaming a new chamber, it would need an extractor modification for the slightly larger rim.

No, I don't need anything this powerful... I just want it. The largest game I have access to here in Australia is Buffalo... lots of people seem happy using .458 Winchester Magnum, so I won't be totally "over gunned"..... and yes a 45/70 would do, but that's not the point.

The argument that you only get slight increase in velocity for large increases in powder is irrelevant. Firstly, powder is cheap, secondly if you applied this "logic" to it's end point we would all choose the .45 ACP over the 45/70. I constantly here this from 25/06 owners who criticise my choice of .257 WBY, but they seem to ignore that the same argument could be used against them in favour of a .257 Roberts..... and on and on down the line until you end up thinking you should have chosen a .25/20.....LOL.

Anyway, back to the topic.......

For those that have already gone the 45/120 route.... do you think I'm mad? Is there a good reason why I shouldn't/mustn't try this?

Thanks.

Phil.

p.s. I'm new here.

tykempster · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:44:38 PM »

Price the dies.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:51:44 PM »

I think it would be Kool Phil, go for it, and welcome to GBO!!

The Hornady dies($75) are a bit more than 45-120 Lyman dies($50), but they're available, brass costs about the same as 45-120 brass at a little over $2 each. Both 4D and Elk Ridge have the reamers available, I don't know if the 450NE can be done by hand, but I know the 45-120 can, that would be something to consider if you're not planning on having it done professionally.

Tim

miyata · « **Reply #3 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:11:41 PM »

Thanks guys, it looks like the extra cost of the dies won't break the bank..... here in Oz we typically pay double the US price for anything related to firearms.... i.e. it looks like I won't have much change from $A1000 ($US900) after purchasing the Ultra Hunter SS.

I do have a few questions for you....

1. The Hornady ammo in 450NE sends the 480gr at 2150fps (24 inch)..... I can't find any reloading data ....is this comparable to a 45/120?

2. If it is comparable.. what sort of performance have you guys seen for some lighter projectiles (particularly those from Barnes)?

3. My preferred bullets are usually Barnes, so I'm looking for some ballistic coefficients for the various .458 offerings from them.... unfortunately their website is down for a few days.... can anyone quote some BC's for me, so I can play with some ballistics software?

Many thanks,

phil

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:34:05 PM »

The 45-120 will easily do over 2100fps with 500gr bullets, Tyler pushed 405gr over 2500fps at an estimated 40kpsi which is well within the SB2 frame's capability, it may be over your shoulder's capability tho!!!!

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=680

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148995.msg1098618734.html#msg1098618734

The 300gr TSX-FB has a BC of .230, same for the 300gr TTSX, not real great, I think I'd go for a 450TSX-FB myself, it has a .488 BC, I haven't shot the 300gr out of the 45-120, and I don't think Tyler did, but Knight0334 may have, I'm sure he'll check in on it.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=419728

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=544442

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=911014

I dunno if you've seen it, but ADI has 450NE data. http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/warning.asp

Tim

miyata · « **Reply #5 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:45:21 PM »

Thanks again Tim,

Yeah, I saw the ADI loads (that's the powder I use for obvious reason, since it's made here), but they seem to just duplicate the original factory load of 2150fps, they don't even give min and max loads - just the one load at 2150fps. I'm guessing that's because the olde double rifles are sighted with that assumption and if you change it your barrels might not aim at the same point.

I like the sound of the Barnes 450tsx-fb, what a fantastic BC... I'm off to do some playing with software

A 405gn at 2500fps sounds very exciting

phil

miyata · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:58:41 PM »

Hmmmmmm.

I really shouldn't play with ballistic software....

IF I could squeeze 2350fps out of the barnes 450gr tsx-fb, then it would have a muzzle energy of 5550 ft-lb and still have 3500 at 300yds and an astonishing 3000 at 400yds at which point it would have dropped less than 8MOA.... useable with a good rangefinder. That's assuming a 200yd zero which keeps it within a 3" radius to 235 yds. Nice.

Next I'll have to calculate the recoil.....LOL.

phil

leadbutt · « **Reply #7 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:03:26 PM »

I have a Ruger no-1 45-70 that has been converted to the 450 3 1/4" nitro, and I am hear to tell you as long as you use the Black Powder Express loads it is a load of fun , once you step up into the Nitro loads, it became apparent why it was a favorite for elephants and such,

peternap · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:30:52 PM »

I agree that the only reason to NOT do it is cost. Cost really shouldn't factor in though. If you're a penny pinchin shooter, buy a Guide Gun and quit there. The Handi's are for playing.

I spent most of the day today making two 12FH cases and two 730 DDR's.
That isn't very cost effective, but they sure are fun to shoot.

I say go for it and keep us posted.

miyata · « **Reply #9 on:** January 01, 2010, 06:29:16 PM »

I may have found a reason why this won't work......

The rim thickness (yes thickness, not diameter) on the 450 NE is .040" and on the 45/70 it's .070, this means I will need to add metal to make a 450 NE chamber.

I think.

Comments from anyone who understands this better than me?

phil

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 01, 2010, 08:36:38 PM »

It wouldn't matter, there would be enough rim cut for the .620" rim of the 450NE outside of the .608" rim cut of the 45-70, you'll just have a little step in the rim cut. Also, an extractor can be modified to hold the cartridge to zero headspace.

Tim

Datil · « **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2010, 01:12:16 AM »

Just a Welcome to the GBO forums Phil. I can not any thing about the recambering,
But keep us posted. I enjoy Your Posting from down under.
Datil

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2010, 04:16:52 AM »

Quote

The rim thickness (yes thickness, not diameter) on the 450 NE is .040" and on the 45/70 it's .070, this means I will need to add metal to make a 450 NE chamber.

The brass is available in thick rim (.060) also.

leadbutt · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2010, 02:36:23 AM »

If you do it go with the thin rimmed version, that id what factory brass is, the older thick rim is the "BP" version and a bit harder to find some times.

My Ruger is set up for the thin rim, and had the chamber set up to handle 55o grain WFN type lead slugs, I had it done to original specs, but for got that the round is loaded primarily with the 480 solid/soft so had to have it done again.

Dies are costly but , the best price I found and then bought where from C&H die,

AtlLaw · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2010, 04:06:33 AM »

I very, very briefly kicked around the idea my own self around the time I did my 45-120. I think there's a thread here somewheres where Tim and I discussed it. $:-\$ About one or two lines worth maybe...

Anyway, the name (450 NE 3.25) was the only pro when it came to rechambering, and it didn't outway the cons when compared to rechambering the barrel to the 45-120 3.25. I solved that problem thusly: whenever I'm asked what the cartridge is I just say "450 Sharps NE 3.25."

For those who haven't a clue it don't make no nevermind. For those who know big bores it usually starts an interesting conversation. Like now!

Someone once said, "what's in a name?"

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2010, 05:31:19 AM »

Here's that discussion, we evidently weren't aware Hornady was making the brass and dies then, or they weren't available yet, New Dimension dies(my favorite!!

) are considerably less expensive than any other mfr at ~$75.

Tim

peternap · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2010, 11:57:43 AM »

If you want a big bore in a Handi (as opposed to a 45) why not go with this. (12FH)

It's a proven Handi cartridge, fairly inexpensive and loads of fun to shoot. Not to mention, whatever you shoot with it falls down.

Even easier to make is the .730DDR. A little less power but enough.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2010, 12:41:03 PM »

Kinda makes the 50-140 look puny don't it... $:-\$

peternap · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2010, 01:01:42 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on January 04, 2010, 12:41:03 PM

Kinda makes the 50-140 look puny don't it... $:-\$

I shoot em every week and they're still awe inspiring. I filled one of the 730's up with black powder last week with a 1200 grain slug and it looked like a flame thrower and sounded like a thunder clap.

Even using 150 grains of RE17, it is attention getting. Darned accurate to 150 yards too,

becker · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:18:16 PM »

some more info on that 12fh please...that thing looks crazy cool

peternap · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:57:36 PM »

Quote from: becker on January 04, 2010, 06:18:16 PM

some more info on that 12fh please...that thing looks crazy cool

The 12FH is Ed Hubels brain child. He has posted his research on the web for years.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,79991.0.html
http://forums.(censored word)/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/848109883

The 730 DDR is something I came up with and is based on Ed's work. It's just a different way to mount rims. The last post on the Last link up there looks like DDR cases Ed made up. Kind of flattering.

Ed has pioneered using large charges of slow burning powders in these cases with very heavy bullets. He uses RE17 a lot.

There is a lot of reading there if you're interested.

I'm using the Handi Ultra slug gun and they handle the pressures in stride. You need to change the springs if you use the BMG primers. I have one gun to shoot the BMG's but the others use the altered cases. I drill and tap the flasholes and put a bushing in reamed for a 209 primer.

They aren't as hot so it limits your powder choices.

Anyway...Ed has developed a full line of FH cartridges including a 4bore FH. He seems to be concentrating on the lighter bullets now. 20 ga, 16 ga, etc. They do shoot flatter. It's hard to keep up with him

In both the 12FH and the 730, I've shot bullets from 600 grains up and tri ball loads (Dixie slugs makes them and was kind enough to share his loading data) they are super buckshot measuring .600.

I worked up what I call plastijackets and have different weights up to 1200 grains.
I've turned brass slugs to 1000 grains. The list goes on and on

If you like serious big game guns and like to tinker, the FH is something to look at.
Any of his creations are more gun than you'll ever need but they exceed the Trex by a considerable margin and can be used in a normal 12 ga if you shorten them and load down slightly.

peternap · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2010, 07:29:16 PM »

These are a few different cases I made up last night. The far left is an unaltered 50BMG and the far right is a 25/06.

My cases got named Blammy shells (Long Story) and I even print my own boxes for them. It adds to the enjoyment

Joe S. · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2010, 06:38:28 AM »

holy cow! i thought the 45/70 was big!!

Daman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2010, 07:39:17 AM »

No offense guys, but Y'ALL are CRAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no way I am shooting something like that out of a Handi or even a full fledged sniper rifle for that matter! The 45/70 is a must have for me out of curiosity gained here, but not those homemade shoulder breakers!

peternap · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2010, 07:47:25 AM »

Quote from: Daman on January 05, 2010, 07:39:17 AM

No offense guys, but Y'ALL are CRAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no way I am shooting something like that out of a Handi or even a full fledged sniper rifle for that matter! The 45/70 is a must have for me out of curiosity gained here, but not those homemade shoulder breakers!

Daman...Recoil is our friend !

miyata · « **Reply #25 on:** January 06, 2010, 05:27:09 PM »

Thank you to everyone that responded to my original post.

I'm now thinking that a rechamber to 45/120 makes the most sense.

phil.

Daman · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2010, 12:31:49 AM »

peternap

I have a Mossberg 835 3.5" Magnum 12 ga for all the recoil I want!!!!!!!!!! I am sort of a recoil whimp! I never feel it shooting in the field, but off the bench is a different story and the SCOPES!!!! Have to sighted in off the dang bench!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hence my objection to a shoulder breaker in my closet!

I have all the respect in the world for anybody's hobby, even if it is making Handi's into CANNONS!