smith and wesson is ok (please forgive me graybeard)

[myronman3]

as far as anti union....i hear what you are saying.   but from a feed my family standpoint, it is what works best.   there are alot of things i dont like about them, like the hand in hand with the demicraps thing.   burns me to no end.  and believe me i work endlesslyto try to change that.   and the fact that the senior guys think they got a free ticket because they got 30 years.  where i come from, everyone pulls their wieght or else.  i guess that is like so many complicated issues, nothings perfect but you do your best anyhow and try to make do.  and at the end of the day, come here and talk it over with your friends.   maybe the goverenment should hand things over to us for a month?   i am sure we could get some things straightened out.    

[Lloyd Smale]

good luck with the battle pal!  and as far as unions go there like everything else. There good for the people who use them properly. Its to bad some people hide behind them. But I know one thing I wouldnt be living near the life I live now if it wasnt for the union. It pisses me off to to end that the union pay pac money to the democrats but i get a chance for revenge every election. I guess ive said all im going to say on this subject at least on this post were not going to change the world here as a matter of fact were not even going to change someones opionion. This is a gun forum and we shouldnt be pissing away at each other here it just will give the antis more ammo. You are all my brothers here no matter what you shoot or what you drive or where you work.

we have gotten it passed!   bad news is that pinhead doyle will certainly veto it.  hopefully we can override his veto.   won the first round but the fight is just begining.   now if only mccallum would have won.... :cry: .
  it would be a done deal.

[Tony]

I just wanted to say that I agree with everyone about being mad at Smith & Wesson for what they did, but maybe instead of everybody griping about it how about trying to find solutions to the problem. Now before anyone tries to go ballistic on me, I realize that it is not an easy solution to such a big issue, and thats just my opinion.

Tony

[kciH]

Lloyd,
S&W isn't hurting because they are sellouts, it's because the price of their inferior product is greater than that of a competitor.  Sounds an awful lot like how the foriegn carmakers got a foothold in our auto market and are threatening to dominate because it is still the case.  I bought a new Chevy truck two years ago, and I'll never buy a Nip truck, but I don't really feel like I got my $36K worth of refinement and technology either. Blind support for companies that make inferior products at a higher cost is what will cost the U.S. ALL of it's industry, because there are far more people concerned with how good it is and what it costs than where it's made.

[carolcann]

Wow, this post has run from a new snubbie revolver to S&W' litigation deal to unions to "buy American" (whatever that means).

For a good listing of anti-gun contributors, search using google (which is BTW among the anti-sympathizers). Type in 'anti-gun', gun-rights, etc.

S&W's president, when they had a British president, signed the deal with Boston and the Clinton HUD secretary in private, without prior consultation or notification to the BOD, it's management, or employees. At the time, the carrot held out by the US government was that only companies signing that deal would be granted contracts for US agencies includng the FBI, DEA, ATF, and others. When the government, our government renigged on the contract by buying Austrian-owned Glock products, a simple breach was caused, legally releasing S&W from almost all aspects of the deal. Hundreds of American workers were sold out by that move alone.

S&W's new owners aren't honoring any of the deal. And the USAG has published a "non-intent" letter to the content of the deal, so it is moot and dead. And it is true S&W makes components for Kimber, Dan Wesson, Harley Davidson, Pratt&Whitney/UTC, and GE Aircraft Engines, among others. And no one can refute that no American gunmaker has done more for American law enforcement professionals than S&W. From training, equipment, forensic sciences, and emerging technologies to gun safety, S&W has led the industry for generations with no threat from Colt, Ruger, or Remington.

Yes, most "US products" are not all US. A FIAT European consortium owns Beretta, Winchester (USRAC) Browning and other brands. And they supply the bulk of small arms to the US armed forces. Ford and Dodge light trucks are assembled in Mexico, where thousands of space shuttle and man-rated space program components are made. Most of the clothing worn in this country are woven or made across the pacific.

This is all a sign of the times as they say. Even my hubby, a dyed-in-the-wool Eagle Scout certified US Patriot now contracts with offshore companies to make or assemble his products, after dealing with bargained labor (we don't live in a Right-to-Work state) that wanted him to pay everybroom-pusher according to aerospace  engineer wage standards, and fought (read $$$) to make us employ dope-users and people with criminal records. He had tears in his eyes when he went offshore but the products are superior to what was made here and margin tripled. Thats just fact. I'm happy he did, because the Americans who fly commercial airlines get a better & safer product because of his tough decisions.

Well thats my 4cents, I wonder what direction this thread will take now?

Gotta go, suns rising, leaves are falling and my 8 3/8" S&W M16 has a hot date in the squirrel woods!   :grin:

[1badmagnum]

I love my jap rides,they smoke the competition in price and value.
take a ride in a lexus nissan or toyota and compare it to union made american cars or trucks.the union workers feed their famililies,but the rest of the country suffers economically because these buy american types over pay for inferior products.
smith and wesson what a joke,$900 for a wheelgun that taurus makes for $400.
I dont care who and where they make products as long as I get value for my money.

[Questor]

I think the S&Ws are very well made compared to most Taurus models. Taurus does have a few winners though: that raging bull in 454 and 480 is fantastic functionally, if not cosmetically.  I don't know what S&W was thinking when they came up with the new 500 blunderbuss, I see it as a novelty item.  Maybe some variant of it will be more appealing, like an x-frame 480 Ruger with a ported 6" barrel.

As for US vs. imported, my own tale of woe concerns my rifle.  I bought a CZ 550 American almost solely because I knew I could adjust the trigger the way I wanted it and because they concentrated on what's important in a rifle, not just cosmetic features that mean nothing to me.  I should have bought a Ruger, but then I would have taken a risk on accuracy and I probably would have gotten a gun with a lousy trigger.  

Surveying the things we own, the finest are mostly American made, except for a few things.  

We've had some disappointments with American products, but these are the exceptions.  And there are clearly some products that other countries are better at making, Italian shotguns, for example; and Japanese outboard motors, and some of the Malaysian chips.

For cars, it varies depending on model rather than on manufacturer.  For motorcycles, American products are only interested in the prestige market with appeal to 45 to 60 year old men, leaving the majority of sales to others.

Many products simply aren't made here any more, or never have been.  Fact is, we thrive on many cheap consumer goods that exist solely because they are cheap.  

Think of the things that you purchased to be durable and reliable. Do any of them come from Walmart?

[Mikey]

carolcann wrote:  "Yes, most "US products" are not all US. A FIAT European consortium owns Beretta, Winchester (USRAC) Browning and other...."  Dang, it's prolly those French librul folk who put sand in the actions just so we all would have to get used to a lesser standard of 'smooth'.  Nutz, where's my lapping compound?

So, no wonder my latest acquision, a Winchester Big Bore Black Shadow in 444 is a POS and has been back to the factory twice, without even one shot being fired, and is still crunchy.  Lubrication instructions must be written in French.   Dang, anyone know a good lever man (or woman) who can smooth that action out for me???  I was thinking about asking one of the Swedish Womens Bikini Rifle Cleaning Team from the Mi-Surp forum to help me but I'm afraid I would lose my concentration, real quick.  Just Mikey here.........

[DzrtRat]

Mikey,

Let me know if it works out with the Swedish Womens Bikini Rifle Cleaning Team from the Mi-Surp forum.....

maybe I need one of those crunchy Winchesters too!      :-D

[Dogshooter]

The only problem I have with Taurus MIGHT be based on a false premise. I would love to be enlightened so if any of you guys care to set me straight, please do so. I seem to remember hearing a story about Taurus's "humble" beginnings. The story I heard was that the Brazillian gov't talked S&W into building a state of the art manufacturing plant there and after it was operational, they nationalized it and just took it away from S&W. Tooling, blue prints and all. Hence the interchangeability of parts of some of their earlier guns. The F & F wasn't as good at first and S&W did retool and incorporate some cosmetic changes to make their product different if not better. Assuming this story was correct, I didn't want to help line the pockets of the Brazillian gov't and therefore never gave a Taurus a second look.
And as for S&W not supporting "us". I also heard that S&W was bought out by another company sometime after they entered into their agreement with Klinton and the new owners were legally bound by the agreement BUT were trying to live it down. The person that gave the interview I read seemed to have "our" interests at heart. And anyway, they are still made here and the Taurus isn't. That alone is almost enough to make me lean toward the Smith.

[Dogshooter]

....and another thing. I don't understand how anyone can be pro-gun and a Democrat. Unions are doing everything they can to put the democrats in power again and we all know if they get the power, they'll get our guns. What am I missing here?

[45 2.1]

Graybeard-
 Knowledge is power and YOU have a forum to show it. USE IT and post all anti gun/American companies and their products so everyone can use it to Americas advantage. No BS between ourselves argueing about this and that that divide and conquer. How about it? Front page material!

[myronman3]

like i said, i am a union steward and believe in most of what they do.   but then there is the democrap thing.   well first off,  i am no democrap.  far from it. and i fight tooth and nail (from the inside) to change what my union does.   you are all free to sit back and gripe about unions,  but i am willing to bet the vast majority of you are working on secondhand or even third hand rumors.  
   yes, they do generally back the democraps; but sometimes you get some bad with the good.   i do what is in the best interest of my family, period.
  as far as taurus being nothing more than cheap smiths, hogwash.  my 2 cenets says they beat the pants off smith.

[Redhawk1]

I think the S&Ws are very well made compared to most Taurus models. Taurus does have a few winners though: that raging bull in 454 and 480 is fantastic functionally, if not cosmetically.  I don't know what S&W was thinking when they came up with the new 500 blunderbuss, I see it as a novelty item.  

quote]


Quit kidding yourself, the S&W500 is here to stay. They said the same thing about the 454 Casull and the 44MAG.... I will take a Ruger or a Smith & Wesson over a Taurus anyday. I have well over 30 firearms and not one of them is a Taurus and never will be.

[v-man]

I've just been following along and keeping my mouth shut but....
I have bought 4 Taurus' in the past 5 years(3 revolvers and 1 Millenium) I have already sold 3 of them. None of them had smooth actions. The triggers are ok but not great except the Millenium which was the worst trigger I have ever seen). Each revolver ocasionally has a problem with the cylinder binding. 3 had fixed sights that were not close to point of aim at 15 yds. I still have the titanium .357 snubby cause it's so light , 7 shots and my wife got it for me for Christmas. But it is not an impressive gun. I am not a S&W fan (Go Ruger!!) but every S&W I have ever owned was smoother, tighter and better quality than any Taurus I have ever touched.
(Though they are grossly overpriced.)

[ftstinyc]

I have the same type of story as V-man. I just retired a couple of years
ago and decided to get back into hand gun shooting. I bought 4 Taurus
revolvers and the 9mm PT99. At this time I didn't own any Smiths.
Now I have 4 Smiths and a Beretta. Now I don't have anymore Taurus.
All the revolvers from Taurus were a problem except one. they would have
the cylinder Bind after so many rounds, also would spit lead back, and
except for the 44 raging bull were not very accurate. I had the 22 hornet that
the cases would get stuck in the chamber with factory ammo. No amount
of polishing would fix this problem. the raging bull was a good gun and very
accurate. I should of kept that one. The PT 99 was dependable but not
accurate at all. Even though it is close to the Beretta It's not in the same
ball park. I love my smith's and will never look back.