Author Topic: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag  (Read 815 times)

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Offline xit

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model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« on: January 16, 2010, 01:19:32 PM »
Hello

I was pondering and am looking for expert opinions.  As .30/.30's can make close to 40000 in pressure could that old frame handle the pressure of a .30/.40 Krag.

Thanks for your input.

Pat ???  ???

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 01:32:49 PM »
The 30-30 has a SAAMI MAP of 42kpsi, looking at Lyman 48th data which has CUP data for both, it appears the 30-40 runs just a bit higher than the 30-30, 39.9kcup compared to 38.6kcup for the 30-30's highest figure, not a lot of difference, but still more.

Tim

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 02:31:43 PM »
Unless you just cant get enough powder into that 30-30 case, and there are so many good powders to choose from, the Krag will hold more. I happen to like the size case the 30-30 is for loading density and you can load heavier than the std 150 and 170s into it. If you rechamber dont try to make a 30-40K Magnum out of it.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40 Krag
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 02:40:37 PM »
I agree, keep with factory loads and you should be just fine. If better ballistics are your true target, get a SB2 receiver and try a larger cases cartridge.

I built a 308/307 Winchester and kept the 30-30 as it. it really shot to good to fuss with anyhow... Now the 307 is another excellent shooter. I load it to approx the same pressures and get improved ballistics too!! Bill talked me out pf a 30-30 Ackley improved, for me the 307 was a better choice.

A 30-40 would be cool as its got some nice history behind it. there is more to a cartridge choice than just ballistics.

CW
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Offline xit

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 04:13:38 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts. It is sure nice to be able to get opinions from those with so much experience.

 The .30/40 would give a little more range I would guess and the options of some heavier lead.  The rimmed case is also appealing.  I don't know how serious I am but it would be more fun to have another calibre option and the old Topper is such a nice looking rifle.

CW: I understand your .307 was made from the .308 rifle. That would be fun.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40 Krag
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 11:44:56 PM »
Yup,
 Larry turned in a rim in a Survivor 308 barrel for me making a 307/308W barrel. The two cases are identical in dimensions sans the rim on the 307 and no rim on the 308. So by using the factory 308 extractor and simply slightly relieving under the extractor, you can safely fire either round from the same gun/chamber!

 For me it was just to have something different and I prefer rims on my handi calibers. I load it to approx 40,000Cup. So Its lighter then factory, but produces better ballistics than the 30-30. Which is likely still better then I would have gotten with the 30-30 IMP. Plus its in a factory caliber.

I can really see the appeal to a 3040, esp if your a lead or heavy bullet shooter as the 3040 has done well with these.

Good luck and be sure to post up what you do and how it goes!

CW
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 04:06:19 AM »
Any of those heavies with a non-RN or FN form loaded into a 30-30 on top of a healthy dose of powder will perform surprisingly well at distance. Try it first, if you arent satisfied you can start spending money.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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Offline Darreld Walton

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 03:07:27 PM »
Most of the loading data I've looked at for the Krag round put 150-165 gr. weight bullets mighty close to .308 Winchester ballistics.  I like to load my 1898 Krag carbine with 220 Hornady's and 'about' 41 gr. IMR 4350, which pretty much duplicates the original 220 gr. cupro-nickel fmj military load giving it 2100 fps out of my  1899 Krag rifle.  The 220 round noses also shoot a LOT better than other bullets, mostly, I suppose, because of the long bearing surface that performs well in less than perfect bores.  I've used that bullet in some mighty nasty looking 1903 Springfields at about the same velocity, and even they'll turn in some impressive targets.  Recoil doesn't seem to be as sharp with the heavies, and are more pleasant to shoot than the lighter slugs.
Having two Krag rifles, I think I'd have to pass on the idea of punching out a .30-30 Handi, and leave it as-is.  I load Dad's Topper with 165's using 170 gr. data, and they work just fine.  Gotta watch out, though, as most bullets in that weight range made up as spitzer soft points perform best at a bit more velocity than the .30-30 will deliver downrange, so the shots are still limited (self-imposed) to 'around' 200 yards.
Oh, one other thing to consider....you'll likely find a box of .30-30 on the shelf in the gas station at Resume Speed, Wyoming, and the .30-40 might be a bit more problematic if you leave your loads sitting on the counter and don't realize it till you're halfway to the stomping grounds!
I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. "Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men." "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline

Offline xit

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 03:30:26 PM »
You guys have awesome insight. ;D  I will load a while with the topper as is and see how it performs.  Do you see improvements in performance Darrel with the  165's or do they just look cool? I was thinking of trying some boat tails but hadn't found any loads so I had not pursued it. I have a bunch of IMR8195 I would like to use up.
Is there any reason why a fellow could not load 220's in a 30/30 or would it be a waste of time? :-\

Offline xit

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 03:43:48 PM »
 :-[ Whoops 4895 powder.  My brain is getting overloaded. :)

Offline Darreld Walton

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 06:16:52 PM »
I can't personally see using anything heavier than a 180 with the 30-30 case.  Just flat don't have enough case capacity.
Probably not capable of making boattails worth the effort.  Seems like a good flat base bullet works better, but give 'em a shot, and see what they'll do, and let us know!
I loaded some Speer 130 HP for Dad's rifle, and I know that those are devastating on varmints, even at reduced velocity.  Red mist kind of damage. 
You could do a lot worse than use 4895 in the 30-30.  I've used that, as well as 4064, 3031, but never thought that it had enough capacity to make 4350 work in there with heavier bullets.
I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. "Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men." "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline

Offline gcrank1

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 03:27:29 AM »
You can load as long a bullet as will fit to the origin of the rifling as long as the base still is in the neck (ie, not intruding into the powder capacity). Old timers have done this for years, but truth be told, the 150s have the best record for kills from all Ive read. On thick skinned very large game the 220 may be better due to deeper penetration.
You kill with the bullet placed exactley where the critter lives.
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Offline bckskin2

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2 stupid questions?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 09:16:38 AM »
I think this was covered before, but is the .30/30 OK with lite pointed bullets in a single shot like the H&R? I bought some 125 gr bullets that were supposed to be .311, but when I got home they miked .308.
Stupid question 2 Did Marlin have a cartridge similar to the the .307 Winchester.
The only rifle I had ever seen chambered for the .307 was a custom Martini.
Jerry

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40 Krag
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 10:41:48 AM »
 No marlin never offered the 307. they where supposed to, the 356 was offered but not the 307.

Now Winchester offered both the 307 & the 356 in there "big bore" 94's.

I have very good luck with a couple 135 spitzer's in my old 30-30 contender pistol. I haven't shot many in my Handi as I plainly don't hunt with it much. But I did this year. I used the Hornady 160 FTX with excellent results!! I really don't see a need for a lite bullet from a long tube. I shot a couple deer with a Nosler 150 BT bullet, it performed as you would expect.

CW
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Offline yukondog

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 11:11:18 AM »
Yes,I shot the I think they were nosler BT in 125 I beleave and they shot very well, never hunted with them just punched paper.
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2010, 11:38:24 AM »
The .30s make pretty decent mid-range varminters with those if they are decently accurate. And unlike a smaller caliber that has to expand to .30 or so, it starts out already there. They are a little more 'loopy' in trajectory though.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 2 stupid questions?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 12:26:06 PM »
Stupid question 2 Did Marlin have a cartridge similar to the the .307 Winchester.
The only rifle I had ever seen chambered for the .307 was a custom Martini.
Jerry

Marlin makes the 308 Marlin Express which is pretty much a 307Win.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/308_marlin_first_look.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Marlin_Express

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Marlin+Express



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Offline bckskin2

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Re: model 188 Topper .30/.30 to .30/40Krag
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 08:55:29 AM »
I think that was what I was thing of. Here in IL both are too much gun for most things. That's why I keep thinking of loading a .30/30 to 7.62X39 level. I load my Enfield down to that level and it shoots pretty. I thing the .30/30 would be better. Smaller case. easier to find components.
Don't really need it as much now. We solved the coyote & dog problem by getting rid of the chickens! Unless the go after my dog, the ponies, or barn cats I don't worry too much.