Author Topic: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective  (Read 3181 times)

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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 03:24:26 PM »
30 30 was the most common cartridge on shelves but plenty of '06 and 22-250 as well. In no way would I rely on shopping for ammo during a crisis. Get your supplies now, you can depend on a rush if the balloon ever were to go up. If you are really thinking about apocalypse then battle field pick-ups could be an option, at that point 5.56 , 7.62x39 chamberings may be advantageous. Nobody carries 308 on a battlefield today so might want to think about that some.

22 mag was always around too come to think of it. Depending on your purpose that could be handy as well.
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 03:45:56 PM »
Been a thread on survival rifle's and ammo going on for almost a year in the survival site. Lots of good thoughts there too. gypsyman
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2010, 03:55:06 PM »
The U.S. Military still uses the M-24 and some M-14s both of which use .308.  Some aircraft mini-guns also use it.

All of that is moot if you're using a Handi.  Rimless cartridges aren't reliable enough.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 04:07:23 PM »
A suppresed 22LR would be a good idea! After all a fella would not want to call attention to himself if he could help it.

Someone said earlier that to run is better than to stand and fight and that is true. Bug out unless cornered.
A tunnel to escape to would be a good thing.............. excuse me I gotta get this dirt outa my pocket.
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2010, 04:12:29 PM »
  I don't know about any sort of 'doomsday' scenario.  I can tell you that what was available around here during the last ammo shortage was 243, 270 and some of the other popular, but not as popular as 308 cartridges.   30-06 was spotty, 308 and 223 were tough to get.  30-30 was available, but the big box stores wre out of almost everything.  

  22lr was available, but not as thick on the shelves as I'd like it.  Bricks were snatched up, but small boxes were available.  You could get 22, just not in fun quantities.  The 22mag and the 17mag were never completely off the shelves.  They have their following, but not so many that they bought it out.

  The one thing I saw as being in good supply was 12g birdshot.  Not a rifle round, as the OP asked about, but a viable 'survival' cartridge without doubt.  The price was up, but it was always there.  I think a lot of the panic buying was based around 'black rifles' and handguns.  Handgun ammo was impossable to buy.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2010, 09:12:55 PM »
 If ammo is scarce and I'm worried about an appropriate survival caliber in a rifle then it's doomsday.
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2010, 11:51:03 PM »
I cast my Survival Rifle vote for a Handi in 44 Mag.  50 rounds of 44 mag in my area is cheaper than 3 boxes of .30-30 Win. Also, I am beginning to cast bullets and reload.   A hardcast waterquenched and heat treated 44 mag bullet can be used to take anythin up to and including moose and elk, assuming proper shot placement.   Also, I never saw a shortage of 44 mag ammo, but prices did increase a little due to raw materials shortage.  Beyond 44 mag, a 12 ga rifled slug barrel and 22 LR are both good ideas.

A good survival skill set to pick up is bullet casting and reloading.

st762

 
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Offline Guy Pike

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2010, 12:29:12 AM »
Dee's point of using what the U.S. military is using is well taken. I translate "survival" as defense against a two legged enemy. Using .223 and 12 guage allows one to pick up ammo from the fallen enemy. That said, I still have the AK 47 I was issued in 1974 and carried exclusivley for 19 of my 23 years service.
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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 01:15:07 PM »
battlefield pickup of ammo would more than likely mean .223 in todays world or 7.62x39 depends on who is on that battlefield. 30.30 winchester or 30.06 are rifles that you would most likely find ammo in almost any home or farm in the US. The same with 12 guage shotgun not only civilian supply points but military.

then last but not least the trusty dusty .22 LR  quite with the right subsonic rounds for supply of food when you do not want noise or taking out an opponant as quietly as possible. ammo will probably be easy to find as well.

you have those and you would be well armed for survival. you have weapons in those calibers put away in several different locations as well as stocks of reloading components for those calibers that can be reloaded.

any direct confrontation against a military type opponent will probably spell your doom. however the tried and true insurgent hit and run stealthy person with a survivors mentality has a good chance to do just that..survive.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2010, 01:54:27 PM »
I would have to go with the 308 or 223 because they are military and seems to
always be military around when problems come up ;D

they  are the best  to buy in  quantity at  good prices when  times  are  good

just  stock  up for  your FAVORITE gun and  ignore  this  thread

what  ''will''  be  can't be  answered  just guessed at

stocking  up  does  many things
.....peace  of  mind
... convenience
....gets  you  ahead  of the inflation  curve
.....you  buy  when  you find a deal 
....you  don't  buy when  your desperate
....can  be used  as  barter tho  mostly this would be  ill-advised
.....your  not  buying and  being  tracked  during  some civil  unrest
.....all ammo in stores may be seized if martial law  declared as long as we  talking  extremes

what  to stock
22lr.....1  to 5 k
38/357  combo  rifle and  handgun      500
100  to  500  for  each caliber you  own [depending  on  how  many calibers]

bottom  line  is
it  is  easier  to stock  up  than  know what will  not  be available

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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2010, 01:54:02 AM »
You just hit it on the head.  During the big ammo shortage, I just didn't buy much ammo.  I have some for what I heed.  I did curtail my recreational shooting a bit.  I went out and shot my Handies or my Contender more than the AR15, because the singles consume ammo more conservatively.  I'd like to work toward having a much larger stash of ammo and components than I do, but I have some.

  Years ago, when I was just getting into shooting, I was given valuable advice.  A more experienced man than I (read-old guy) advised me to pick up a box or two of ammo on each payday regardless of if I planned on shooting or not.  For a time I did so routinely, after a while I just grab a box here or there.  Point is, if you pick up a brick of 22 here and another there, and some pistol or rifle ammo as you go, pretty soon you have a few hundred rounds for everything you own.  Not an 'arsenal', but a good start.  Keep that up, and soon you will see an oportunity to buy a case of something you can use; and so on.  Then you have enough that you don't have to worry as long as you don't do a lot of high volume recreational shooting. 

  Just stock up now.  It will probably be easier now than it will ever be again.  The prices aren't ever going to be what they were twenty years ago.  Remember the $100 cases of USGI surplus 223? 

Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2010, 08:56:16 AM »
I think it was a writer named Finn Abergard ( spelling may be poor ) that did an article back in the 80's with regard to finding ammo after a SHTF deal. He suggested having a unpopular cal. rifle . His thought was something such as a 303 or russian cart. or some odd ball sporting cal. He felt that there would be a run on stores and in the aftermath you would stand a better chance with finding odd stuff . He has a point really but another point is there is little excuse for not having say 250 rounds for a rifle and 50 for your handgun . These figures would be min. for on the go , like when trying to get out of harms way on foot . Survival means just that . Staying alive to live another day . Getting  in fight is a good way not to survive . I would also point out it may not be possible to avoid all trouble and a means to stop a fight quick would be welcome . So one if on the run on the foot how much can you carry ? A light weapon with ammo comes after food and water . It would appear that any weapon equal to a 30-30 would work . In a shtf deal one would have to realize that ammo and guns along with other needs can be liberated from those attacking you after the attack is eliminated . What that says is pick up what you need along the way , after a few days there should be a plenty stuff laying around if it was bad enough in the first few days that you really needed a weapon to protect yourself.

To ansewer your question though , stock up early on ammo for what you have to shoot it in . Maybe buy a case of ammo instead of a new gun .

I agree that going with a not so popular round would have its days, like the reason of whats left on the shelf & why the Russians made the 762x54R so the enemy wouldn't be able to use their ammo. but if the enemy could gain access to your ammo then I'm pretty sure they will have access to you rifle that shoots it also.
in a survival situation, not military use.

I am a think ahead kinda guy & would already have the ammo needed to survive so as to not have to deal with riots in stores or having to wonder if theres any ammo left on the shelf.

I actually just started an almost identical thread & am glad to read that I'm not the only one who sees what might be ahead.
I am getting heavily into survival as a hobby because its fun & will save my life in quite a bit of situations.

I often play out scenarios while in the woods & locate & remember possible shelter, find an abundand amount of game for food, practice tying knots & building traps, temporary shelter & starting a fire with whats available & in different weather so when it comes time to survive, I will be well ahead of the game & it will make life a whole lot easier when time & energy is a matter of life & death.

Back on point with ammo & primary guns in a survival situations, I think a pistol will be my first choice & would never leave my person as with a rifle your obligated to put it down to take on other tasks.
I think distance between you & a threat is key to survive so a pistol with & longer barrel in a 9mm would be sufficient in this case. I like the 1911 style pistols but weight might be an issue as appose to a synthetic component pistol. I'm still a newbie with guns but should be up to par within the year.
Night sights like a laser dot & or glow sight is another big life saver because an attack can come at any time & you have to be prepared 24-7, 365. your first line of defense is staying alert. Without that it doesn't matter what gun you have.

A 9mm is a common round slightly smaller, lighter, & easier to carry than say a 40 or 45 cal. A 357 will also be a choice in my book because it increases your chances of finding ammo if you don't mind shooting 38's, which you shouldn't mind if its a matter life or death, it gets the job done.

Offline sachel.45

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2010, 09:17:23 AM »
12 gauge was really easy to find .30-06 was kinda spotty but .308 .223 and 9mm were gone .45 was hit or miss .40 was pretty easy to find and didnt seem to raise in price much .22 you could find but bricks were hard to come by and .22 mag was really easy to find which was nice for me cause i shoot the .22 mag alot. the funny thing is i went to a outdoor store that mostly sold colothing and ski equimpent but they did have a very small ammo section and in it they had .243 .270 .30-06 but the real surprise was 7mm WSM and .300 WSM which i though was kinda odd
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2010, 10:15:20 AM »
HunterFisher, Human nature leads me to factor a few things into my survival plan:
- A large percentage of gun/ammo owners are not shooters. Not most, but a large group.
- Previously inexperienced folks may pick up a gun, but most will not be shooters either.
- There are many shooters that are neither effective nor efficient. A rack of ARs and a pallet of ball ammo does not a survivor make. It just makes you a lucrative target.
- Entropy reigns in chaos; the more complex a piece of gear the more likely it will fail in a crisis. Studies indicate that there is an x factor that exponentially increases that likelihood in matters of life and death; the x factor is normally human.
- Abundance breeds laziness.

A survivor will learn to be efficient and effective with whatever caliber they choose, not plan to rely on availability  or resupply, and learn how to maintain their weapon of choice.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2010, 10:31:08 AM »
For wilderness survival, most small game can be had quietly with snares and traps.  A bow for deer.  Rural areas, gardens, chickens, maybe a cow or goat can keep you fed supplemented by hunting, trapping, and fishing.  Surburban and urban areas are totally different, requires stockpiling food, meds, consumables, and ammo.  Different areas require different guns.  

Offline Hunter Fishman

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2010, 01:41:41 PM »
HunterFisher, Human nature leads me to factor a few things into my survival plan:
- A large percentage of gun/ammo owners are not shooters. Not most, but a large group.
- Previously inexperienced folks may pick up a gun, but most will not be shooters either.
- There are many shooters that are neither effective nor efficient. A rack of ARs and a pallet of ball ammo does not a survivor make. It just makes you a lucrative target.
- Entropy reigns in chaos; the more complex a piece of gear the more likely it will fail in a crisis. Studies indicate that there is an x factor that exponentially increases that likelihood in matters of life and death; the x factor is normally human.
- Abundance breeds laziness.

A survivor will learn to be efficient and effective with whatever caliber they choose, not plan to rely on availability  or resupply, and learn how to maintain their weapon of choice.

I'm not sure I understand what your trying to say.
would you mind writing this in terms we can understand? ???

If this is what you mean than I agree:
Its not about stock piling a pallet of ammo & bunkering down in a basement or bomb shelter like Bert from the movie tremmors.

In a survival situation mobility is a key factor.
If you pick a gun, ANY GUN & use up all your ammo I'm pretty sure you would want to increase your chances of finding more by having a gun you would be able to find ammo for almost anywhere rather than your favorite gun that you cant find ammo for. no matter how good a shot you are, all that goes right out the window if you don't have ammo to shoot.
its all about percentages of your chances of finding more ammo to survive. not having a mass quantity of ammo slowing you down or keeping you in one area.

I know that if the SHTF I would have a WAY higher chance of finding 30-06 ammo in an abandoned house, storage shed, barn & any other place alike or be able to find it to trade or take if need be than any other cartridge in america & possibly the world.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2010, 02:55:59 PM »
Haha, yeah I'm talking about the Bert's in the world! Good analogy.

I'm also saying that .223 and 7.62x39 & maybe x51 are typically fired from a semi/auto with hi-capacity magazines. In the hands of a well-trained effective and efficient shooter, a 30 rd magazine of 308 is a formidable threat to 30 people.

That same weapon, no let's say AR since they're so popular, in the hands of a lot of american firearms owners isn't a threat to a cow. They will rely on the speed of the action and their magazine capacity instead of accurate controlled fire. They may use 20 rds when 1 will do. Look at newsfootage from any real world crisis scenario and you will see spray and pray, not aim and squeeze. A scared human unfamiliar with their firearm will also drop it with a jam, instead of executing a clearing procedure, or attempt to cycle on a blockage. Seen a few blown up aks in the sand.

That said, A LOT more milspec ammo (5.56, 7.62) will be used up ineffectively early on after an EOTWAWKI scenario. I predict without resupply, it will be used up faster than any other caliber until the more fragile actions begin to fail due to abnormal use and poor maintenance.

Not only that, because of manufacturing, and fear, many folks own 1,000s of rounds for them, most likely not in a weatherproof, fireproof container. A nice flood renders a lot of ammo unreliable, especially in gas-operated weapons. Milspec ammo can come from a variety of manufacturers many of which do not meet the same qc as US made. So you stumble across that ammo can full of greek milsurp ball, so you load up. You might get unreliable feed, blockage or worse. Entropy dictates that the more complex a system the more likely it is to fail. Alot of milspec weapons are made to high tolerances with full knowledge that it takes a trained Ironglow Jr (armorer) to maintain and repair them in combat use (survival use).

Now take 30-30, most likely fired in a 6 rd capacity lever gun, or a 30-06, in a 4 shot bolt gun. Probably in the hands of a hunter who is used to placing a single kill shot. He may be able to accomplish in 2 or 3 shots, what another guy needs a full 30 rd magazine to accomplish. They may not be found in pallet quantities (maybe the 30-06 milsurp stuff), but they won't be used as fast I'm guessing.

I also suspect .22 will be the last to go; more rounds spent on defense than hunting in the early days, so folks with the option will opt for their big boomer and save .22 for later.

Just trying to think how it'll go down.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2010, 04:01:48 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said in that only a few that have been in combat or in firefights while serving in LE. will know how to go into combat. Some of us will know when and the how will come if you last through the first encounter! The learning curve better have a big curve in it! I have never held a firearm in anger. I have held one in defense of my family and I can tell you its no place for doubt nor inability or anger!
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Survival Rifle from recent ammo shortage perspective
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2010, 02:40:52 AM »
The key word here is Survival. To engage in battle , fighting , attacks , is a poor idea . To loot after a battle can get you shot as looting stores after a SHTF time .
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