Author Topic: 1st shot flyer  (Read 1815 times)

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Offline ballistx

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1st shot flyer
« on: February 20, 2010, 06:27:10 PM »
I tried to develop this thread on RFC but it went into orbit and resolved nothing.  All the interest seemed to be in discussing everything except what could cause the problem. So, will try it here.

I have some pretty high quality hunting type 22LR rimfires.  Most all have significant 1st shot, cold barrel, whatever, flyer syndrome.  I have 3 of the old Mossberg 44US rimfires and none of them exhibit any 1st shot flyers, even with bulk Federal 510 ammo.  I also have rimfires in 17HM2, 17HMR, 22WMR & 5MM.  None of these exhibit significant 1st shot flyers.

I have numerous centerfires in 222, 223, 243, 25-06, 270, 30-06, etc. and many other calibers over the past 40 years.  I do not remember any of them showing significant 1st shot flyers.  Certainly there was some slight variation but nothing that would present concern about sighting in and then worrying where that 1st shot was going, like it is with the 22LR's.  I have 3 of the Remington 541's and they will generaly have 1st shot flyers in the range of 2" at 25 yards. That makes them virtually unusable for hunting guns where that 1st shot is the really important one, but the 2nd follow up is critical also.

What I wanted to accomplish with the thread was to try and determine, through everyone's experience, just WHAT CAUSES IT.  It seems to be more predominant in the 22LR's BUT some, like my 44US's don't exhibit it at all. It doesn't seem to be ammunition related at it happens with all brands, even target from what I understand.  It doesn't seem to be related to copper washed vs bare lead either.  It isn't ALWAYS there as sometimes my 541-S will put the 1st shot right in with the rest of the 4 shots on the first 5 shot group. So it isn't absolutely consistent in virtually any of my 20 some 22LR rimfires.  But all of them seem to have it except the Mossbergs.  I have many older Mossbergs and they seem to be less prone to it, but not completely free of it.

I know that there are gunsmiths that attack the problem but even they will not commit to it being a certain cause.  They say they will try several things and it probably will help.

I am quite certain that we will not solve this problem in this thread. BUT maybe with everyone's experiences and findings we can all better understand and deal with our individual problems.



Offline Keith L

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 03:03:05 AM »
I have never seen that in a rimfire.  I have a TC Hawkin with a Green Mountain round ball barrel that throws the first shot out of a clean barrel.  Then it groups fine. 

This should be an interesting thread.  Ideas guys?
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Offline montveil

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 05:22:40 AM »
The first shot flier would really bother me if I were to use it for hunting as that is the shot that counts.
Maybe your barrel is too clean and  this rifle needs to be fired from a fouled barrel.
I have heard that too zealous cleaning of a rimfire could produce what you describe.
If you do not clean the barrel and does the same thing happen on your next outing with a cold barrel?
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 06:59:16 AM »
The first shot flier would really bother me if I were to use it for hunting as that is the shot that counts.
Maybe your barrel is too clean and  this rifle needs to be fired from a fouled barrel.
I have heard that too zealous cleaning of a rimfire could produce what you describe.
If you do not clean the barrel and does the same thing happen on your next outing with a cold barrel?
I really think you are on to something here. If after he goes shooting and comes home and cleans the barrel after every outing I can see that happening. It may need that fouling shot to shoot right. Dale
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Offline ballistx

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 07:26:08 AM »
I am not referring only to my experience.  I am speaking of what is a general acknowledgement of the phenomenon across the board of rimfire shooters. My experience, and reading hundreds of posts regarding it, is that it is not just the need for fouling shots. That taken as a given, the problem still exists.  It has been described as even noticeable on some rifles when there is more than 15 minutes between shots (extreme cases). 

Many say they have to just shoot off a shot before entering their hunting area in order to get to the 2nd and subsequent shots. 


Offline S.S.

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 08:10:11 AM »
I have never found anything with a firearm that causes this. We have all heard of the
"Cold Bore Shot" well this is a phenomena I have never agreed with. If anything that should really be the most accurate shot due to the fact that the bore diameter is most uniform for the full length
of the barrel. Once fired, the bore starts to expand from the heat. this expansion progresses
from chamber to muzzle and the fit of projectile to rifling becomes inconsistant. I believe most of the problem is "Cold Shooter", It simply takes us all a few shots to get warmed up.
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 08:54:24 AM »
I know of the 1st shot syndrome you are talking about, just have not really noticed it in my rim fires.  Most of the problems I have heard of have been attributed to semi auto's (maybe because of the lack of consistency in bolt closing between manual and semi?) and oiled/cold barrels.  I have seen it in centerfires, that's why I usually don't clean my barrel my last time at the range before a hunt.  I guess it might help if I am making a looong shot.  I think its really just a matter of each rifle is different, and some are prone to this syndrome.  Maybe changing the way you close the bolt on that first round, tapping the butt on the ground before you chamber the first round, a business card under the barrel at the forend.... Usually with a rifle, its all about consistent vibration for consistent shot placement (Browning BOSS system is an example)

R/E your 44US rifles-  I picked up a nice one for a song and a dance.  Was going to trim the stock, and cut the barrel, make a tree rat gun.  Well, I shot it first with the issue peep sights.  If I told you the groups, you would say I was lying.  Its staying stock... ;D

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline Victor3

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 05:46:41 PM »
 I can only speculate. My half-baked theory has been that the 1st shot, melting the previously deposited and hard wax/grease via combustion/friction, smoothes the bore for subsequent shots.

 As far as your three rifles that shoot good on the 1st shot, they maybe have a tighter bore than most, or have a 'choke' (muzzle restriction). That's my edjumucated guess, based on my CZ/BRNO rifles that shoot good from the 1st shot. CZ's are reported to have tighter than average bores.

 That's my story and I'm stickin' to it (until something better comes along :)).
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline Ron T.

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 08:39:30 PM »
The ONLY rifle I ever had a "first-round flyer" problem with turned out NOT to be a problem with the RIFLE, but rather a problem with the factory customer service's "adjustment job" on this fairly high-priced SCOPE which was designed for use on a center-fire rifle.

In fact, the CZ's new scope was a duplicate of the same scope I had installed on my Ruger #1 the year before this event occurred.

But for clarity's sake, here's the whole story.  I originally purchased a new, well-known name brand, designed for a center-fire 4-12x40mm scope with A/O (adjustable objective turret to eliminate parallax) and installed it on my new bolt-action CZ453 (.22 rimfire "Varmint" model, heavy barrel, no iron sights, factory single set trigger).

The whole outfit shot great, but in order to have the scope parallax-free at 50 yards, I had to set the adjustable objective turret at an indicated 37 yards on the turret in order for the scope to be parallax-free at 50 yards.  Since the scope was new and under factory warranty, I returned it to the manufacturer along with a note indicating the problem and asked them to adjust the mechanical setting on the objective turret so that it more truly indicated the actual range at which the scope was parallax-free.  The scope was returned to me along with a checklist indicating they had gone completely through the scope and it was now "within factory specifications".

However, when I re-installed the scope on the CZ453, I had a terrible time getting the scope "zero'd".  This was quite unusual for me since I'm a very experienced shooter and always bore-sight a new scope so that I'm "on-the-paper" with the initial shot and within 4 or 5 shots, I'm in the X-ring.  Then I make "fine" adjustments to absolutely center each group in the X-ring.

Finally, I got the rifle to shooting consistently in the center of the X-ring after expending 30 or 40 rounds of expensive match ammo.  I was puzzled... but I kept on shooting... and accuracy remained consistent.

The next time at the rifle range (a few days later), the first shot hit the target about 4 inches to the right of the X-ring... exactly at the 3 o'clock position.  I didn't think I'd "pulled" the shot... and there was very little wind, so I decided to keep shooting to find out what happened.

The 2nd shot hit the target about 2 inches to the right of the X-ring at exactly the 3 o'clock position as well.  The 3rd shot hit on the right side of the X-ring at 3 o'clock and, finally, all subsequent shots fired very soon (less than 3 or 4 minutes) after the first shot hit in the middle of the X-ring.  I was puzzled.

I shot two more 5-shot groups... both of which were centered in the X-ring and thought my "troubles" were over, but I was still puzzled.

However, I soon found that if I let the rifle sit for 5-6 minutes while talking to the guy shooting next to me at our Club's rifle range or if I took a pipe-smoking break, the same sequence of events occurred again with the initial shot hitting about 4 inches to the RIGHT of the X-ring again... and then each subsequent shot working its way back to the center of the X-ring.

However, I found that as long as I kept shooting once I was hitting in the middle of the X-ring, the rifle would consistently shoot all shots to that point-of-aim (center of the X-ring).

While this was only a small "bother" when shooting at paper targets, it would be disasterous if it occurred in a HUNTING rifle.  Regardless, I wasn't happy with this kind of performance out of a fairly expensive center-fire scope which I had installed on the CZ.

I eventually took the duplicate scope off my Ruger #1 RSI in 7x57mm and installed it on the CZ.  Once I got it "zero'd", it shot perfectly (as the CZ's scope should have done) into the X-ring.  I waited 10 minutes and shot another 5-shot group... all rounds were well into the X-ring.  Thus, I found out it was, in fact, the CZ's SCOPE that had the problem... NOT the rifle or the ammo!!!


Since the CZ's scope was only 2 months old and the factory had kept it for 6 weeks when I sent it back for adjustment of the objective turret, the scope was still under factory warranty... I called the company and they asked that I sent it back once again... which I did.

A few weeks later, a  new 6-12x40mm scope arrived (different serial number from the scope I sent in).  I mounted that new scope on my CZ... and it shot perfectly as it should have done right from the beginning of this mess.

I won't mention the brand of scope since it is a well-known, decent quality brand and I don't wish to impune their good name... but this was my experience with a rifle that did what your rifle is doing... the ONLY rifle in over 60 years of shooting that EVER did such a thing.

If you can, put a different scope on your rifle and see if it does the same thing.  But don't use one of the scopes off one of your other rifles that is doing the same thing... they could BOTH be having a "scope problem"!!!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 12:37:35 AM »
to bad they didn t send you several boxes of the ammo you used during this experience..
 good 22 ammo ain t cheap, no more.. glad it all turned out well for you..
 if the first shot was a flyer,, id sell any gun like that to somebody an tellum the problem.. it would only matter to a hunter..but it would really matter to a hunter..slim

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 02:00:39 AM »
Had a Rem 788 in a centerfire that would always throw that first shot out of the cold clean barrel 2" to the @ 100yds. Tried leaving the barrel fouled but the result was the same. Took Charmicals advice and put a shim made out of a credit card in the rectangular hole that houses the lug on the bottom of the barrel, Problem Solved.

I was suppose to follow up with accuglass but that 788 was a case stretcher anyway so I left it like it was with the shim in place.

Offline chutesnreloads

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 05:22:18 PM »
Have 10-22 that does this..off 2" at 50 yards first shot out of a cold barrel.As mentioned it keeps zero long enough to hunt with if it is shot before going into the woods.None of my other rifles does this.Would be nice to make it quit but it's really not a problem.

Offline Slowhanddd

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 07:47:17 AM »
The only 22lrs that I've shot a lot is the 10-22.I've built up several of them.I post at RFC quite a bit and have found the first shot will not be on target.These guns will shoot less the 1/4" at 25 yds and less than 1/"2 at 50.My theory is the first shot is hand done on the bolt.Doesn't slam it hard like on the second and on shots.When i shoot groups I take the first shot and then that becomes my target of choice.Both of the guns I have left do this.Neither are bull barrels.Both have Green Mountain barrels with tight chambers.don't know if it's right but that's my story.I don't clean the barrel until it starts to loose accuracy.Maybe 300-400 shots.Sometimes more.I don't shoot high dollar ammo and have tuned the guns to shoot Fed 510.Wolf MT does the same thing too.Slow
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Offline anweis

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 09:02:05 AM »

Maybe your barrel is too clean and  this rifle needs to be fired from a fouled barrel.

Usually this is the cause. Powder residue and lead or copper residue after the first shot change the velocity and pressure for the following shots. These stay consistent for many shots, but if you shoot on a super clean barrel, the bullet slides on bare steel, probably slower.
All my rifles need 1-10 fouling shots, including my CZ 452 (super accurate) which shoots better and better as it gets dirtier.

Offline ballistx

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Re: 1st shot flyer
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 02:56:15 PM »
I appreciate the feedback.  All of my scopes on the 22's are low dollar (under $100) so I can't have a lot of faith in them.  Also can't understand how a scope could cause the problem. Maybe that is why I have never associated it with a scope.  The only higher quality scopes I have here are the older model Redfield 3x9's and 2x7's.  Their parallax settings don't make them too good. I do have a Redfield 4x12 AO that does go down to the 50 yard range.  I may put it on the 541-S and try it. 

I have moved the scopes around onto the 17 calibers and the 17's didn't exhibit the 1st shot flyer though.  Also, I am shooting the Fed 510 and realize that it is far from a "target" round.  But, off on first shot and on with the rest consistently doesn't really lend itself to random ammo cause either. Also, the guns that don't exhibit it are shooting the Fed 510 also.