Rifle Dies-2 vs 3 Die Set ?

[David I.]

I'm going to purchase a set of Hornady Dies for 45-70. I noticed I can get a 2 or 3 die set. What are the advantages/disadvantages of either set? Why would I want or need a seperate expanding die? I will be shooting my reloads in an H&R Buf. Classic single shot rifle.

[LaOtto222]

It all depends on how you want to prep your cases. Every die company has the basic 2 die set for bottle neck rifle cases. Most straight walled cases are offered in 3 die sets. A full length sizer and a bullet seater dies are included for bottle necked cases. Most companies include a crimping feature in the bullet seating dies so you can crimp or not, depending on how you set the die. This is all you need for basic reloading of a bottle necked case. Most offer 3 die sets as well. The third die does different things depending on the company.  In straight walled cases the third die usually flares the mouth of the case so lead/cast bullets seat with out shaving lead off of the bullet base and side. Basic die sets will get the job done. If you really want to get fancy with your reloading then there are all kinds of options, like neck sizing dies, neck collet dies, bushing dies for sizing, for neck sizing, bullet seating, etc. I tend to get by with good basic sets for my straight walled cases and get a little more exotic for bottle necked cases. I just bought a set of basic Hornady dies for a new 7-08, but I added a Lee collet die to size the necks with. Depending on how heavy I get into it, I may add bushing type dies later; but the set I got to start with will do every thing I need. Bottom line - the third die you speak of is for loading lead bullets. If you are not going to load lead and only jacketed, get the 2 die set. If you are going to load lead or think you will load lead bullets, get the three die set. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[David I.]

Thanks LaOtto222 for all the excellent info, very informative and helpful. I will probably get the 3-die set since I'm planning on loading cast bullets not jacketed. Am I correct in saying that the Hornady 2-die set for 45-70 does NOT flare the mouth of the case at all ? I do want to flare the mouth somewhat for the cast .459 I'll be loading.

[JW307]

You'll definitely want to flare the case mouths for the .459 cast bullets, so I'd get the 3 die set.  I actually use the expander die and give just a little bit of flare to the mouth even when using jacketed bullets with my 45/70.  A friend gave me that advice when I started loading for mine because he had actually had a couple of bullets tear the brass at the mouth when he was seating them.

Jake

[David I.]

Thanks for the info Jake. So to answer my question: The two die set does NOT flare the case mouth at all....correct?

[Darrell Davis]

Afternoon David,

Yes, you are correct.

In a 2 die set, the first die deprimes and sizes the case, AND as the case if pulled from the die the neck is pulled over the expander ball on the decaping rod, normaly opening the case mouth up just enough to give a good tight fit to the bullet shank.

It just opens/expands the case mouth after sizing and does not flare the case mouth.

In the case of an expander die or use of a three die set, the first die sizes and decaps, while the second die or expander die, expands and possibly flares the case mouth, depending on the adjustment.

I just opened up my RCBS .308 neck expander die and my .243 Lyman "M" neck expander die and they both do about the same job as the #2 die in a 3 die set.

Both of the above are used when I reload cast bullets in my bottle neck cases.

Seems I recall (??) that expander dies can be had with different expander dia. for different cast bullet situations.

The flare is adjusted in the same manner as with die #2 in a three die set.

IMHO, a three die set is the way to go with the 45/70.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[David I.]

Thanks Darrell Davis for the clear info. I am aware of the functions of a 3-die set (others may not), I did not know what all the 2-die rifle die sets accomplish. I have two related questions, one is regarding a bullet question I asked about 2 weeks ago. 1) I was told by some folks on this forum that I should use .458 diam. bullets for 45-70 if they are jacketed and to use .459 if they are hard cast. I am noticing many hard cast bullets out there that are .458 diam.! Why is this? Will .458 hard cast work OK for me? Money is a big factor for me and I can't afford to make too many mistakes buying the wrong thing, and yes I do realize every gun likes certain loads better than others. As you know, the price for bullets goes down when larger quantities are purchased so I would prefer to buy a larger quantity of a bullet I feel will more than likely work pretty well. I'm just going to be doing some target shooting at home for fun with my H&R BC. I realize .459 is probably better and more ideal with hard cast but will .458 have a good chance of working well? Why are there so many .458 hard cast out there? 2) I will be shooting 300gr. hard cast at velocities of approx. 1600-1700fps. I realize gas check bullets would be better with velocities over apprx. 1200fps but is it really that necessary for my purposes? The gas check bullets can get pricey. Of course I want my bullets to "fly" well, but "leading" of my barrel is only a minor concern unless the leading would be quite bad and happen very quickly after only a few shots. Anyone out there with experience shooting hard cast 45-70 at these velocities? Please advise, I can't afford to by many different bullets in low quantities plus all the added shipping.

[David I.]

Some additional info: I'm shooting 300gr hard cast bullets for a couple reasons; lower price and slightly lower recoil....lower price being the main reason. As far as the velocities of 1600-1700fps ( which is partly due to only 300gr bullet), I feel I will probably need this velocity to shoot these 300gr bullets accurately at my 300 and 400 yd targets. I will NOT be shooting on windy days unless I want an even bigger challenge!

[Darrell Davis]

WOW David,

I have shot cast bullets in a hand gun for years, but only a small amount in rifles.

I hope to soon be loading/shooting/owning a 45/70 and will then address the same situation.

I am reading that there are places which will supply the .459 bullets, and I would guess that will be at no or very little additional cost.

I will probably do most of my own bullet making, so will just size at .459 or whatever is needed.

On the Cast Boolet site, and Marlinowners forum, there are lots of people able to help.

Also, You might send a personal communication to Lloyd Smally ( sorry Lloyd, I know the spelling is wrong!)  as he seems very much in the know on such matters and has hunted for years wioth cast bullets.

He seems helpful, and has helped with some of my questions.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[Darrell Davis]

Also David, Check out CBA - Cast Bullet asso. as they are also heaving into the subject.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[David I.]

Thanks Darrell Davis for the info. I'll have to check into the things you refer to.