BB94 feeding issue

[Sweetwater]

I have a like new Winchester Big Bore Model 94 chambered in 356Winchester. I've had this rifle several years, but have had little time to play with it. I do know that it feeds factory fodder flawlessly. I also know it is very finicky in regards to cartridge overall length - coal. I am aware of the action 's limitations as to maximum overall length. However, it will not feed cartridges with bullets seated shorter than 2.50". I've read several magazine reviews and NONE stated any problem feeding handloads featuring the shorter bullets designed for pistols and revolvers.

Is this a gunsmith fix, or can a shade-tree smith adjust something to create the fix.

Thoughts???

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Mikey]

Sweetwater - you did not describe the actual problem, that is what sort of a jam you get..does it jam against the top of the barrel hood, does the lifter not lift the round into place???  Why are you using shorter slugs - for plinkin?

Some levers do not function well with different style bullets, ie., semi-wadcutters or possibly spire points.  Sometimes a shorter bullet has to be loaded out longer to get it to feed properly.

I would try loading the shorter slugs out to normal length and see what happens then.  You also did not say what 'shorter' bullet you are using.  Mikey. 

[Sweetwater]

Mikey-
To be more specific; yes, cast bullets as for a 357mag for plinking purposes. I conversed with Lloyd Smale and he seats them to the cannulure with no feeding problems in his BB94. These have to be seated to in the area of 2.35"coal for decent neck tension. The ones I have on hand are from a Lyman mold #358447 @ 148gr and an LBT 180WFNGC. The specific problem is stovepiping. The rounds jam into the top edge of the chamber mouth. I get the same results from an LBT 180WFNGC mold. The rounds have to be deep seated (per Veral Smith) to 'fit' the chamber. Then they are less than 2.50"coal, which seems to be the minimum acceptable length.
Maybe this is a dead end. It just seemed that mine has an ailment unmentioned by others doing 'rifle reviews' and so could get 'adjusted'.

I can work the lever part way, then drop it a might and then work it the rest of the way and the cartridge will rise on the lifter, fall onto the top of it, and then load into the chamber, if that's any help in diagnosing the issue.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Mikey]

Sweetwater:  I understand what you are saying and I always agree with both Veral and Lloyd.    One of your slugs is a wfn but the other I do not recognize and do not see it in my older Lyman manuals but would ask if that is something like a wadcutter? 

I shoot the BBs in 444.  I found some slugs are just tough to cycle until you tweak the load length just right.  It's a pita but satisfying when it works.  Even with factory rounds the bullet just kisses the top of the barrel (chamber) before slipping in.

I mentioned before you may have to seat the slug out a bit.  I know that Veral will advise you to seat it to fit the chamber and I advise that, as well as seating for overall cycling length, which means it may be possible to seat it out just a bit and get positive cycling.

I have also had to abandon the use of some slugs as they just will not feed properly but fortuantely there are many, many more that do.  You may need to fiddle with the length a bit to get things to 'work'....

I just cycled my 444 a couple of times and noted the lifter raises the nose of the cartridge so that the jacketed slug just 'skins' the top of the chamber - this is with a straight cased cartridge, about the same length as the 356 but I would think that with a necked cartridge the loaded round should slide right in, unless it's too short and I think that would cause it to hang up.

However, how do you cycle your action??  If you are a gentle soul who treats the lever tenderly it may not lever or cycle properly.  With mine I have to lever it back positively, and it is a bit of a long throw I might add and also add that on occasion I 'short stroke' it and may hang myself up....  I have found that if I am gentle with the lever and look to see that everything is 'sliding in smoothly', I may often get a hang-up like you describe.  Regulation levering is postive.

If you are concerned about deep seating the bullet and raising pressures I would suggest a Lyman factory crimp die - best darn thing inna whole world for levers - and you don't have to worry about crimping in a crimp groove - some of my 444 slugs are loaded ouot beyond the crimp groove but do not move under cycling pressures thanks to the factory crimp die.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Sweetwater]

Mikey-

I understand what you say about working the lever. I have several old Winchesters; a 94, an 86, and a 73, as well as a near new Marlin 94. They all have a different 'touch', but the basics are the same. Maybe I am babying the BB94, because it is new. I was raised on bolt guns and Dad was a stickler about working the action gently, read that quietly. I was a little incredulious at the concept as he was working the bolt on a Remington 722, and I had a worn out M96 Surplus Swede! It was a rattle-trap! These lever actions are a different story to me. They had to be worked or a possible jam was bound to happen. BUT, my nature is to be gentle, so that may be a part of it.
Re:mold number - I spaced the number by one in two places! The Lyman #357446 is what I have, not what I wrote previously. I may just have to break down and get Veral to cut me one special - I'm sure that would break his heart! I took the 180WFNGC and worked the nose just a little with a rasp and got it to fit the chamber at 2.55"coal and feeds wonderfully. So that may be what I need a mold for and just load it appropriatly for hunting or plinking.
Thanks Mikey for your patience and insights.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Sweetwater]

Post-script....
I just finished a handloading session with the rifle in one hand and the press in the other, or so it seemed! I was able to seat the short 147gr #357446 pistol bullets in the cannalure and get it to feed if and only if I worked the lever as quickly as I possibly could. Anything slower would cause the stovepiping as previously described. Likewise, I was able to find a COAL that would allow the 180grWFNGC as well as the 180grFNPB to feed, again by applying speed to the lever. The 180's are engraving the rifling just enough to say so, but are held tight in the case as none offered to stay in the barrel when I ejected the loaded round. I have some 220LFNGC LBT's that feed wonderfully, but I do have to be concious of working the lever with vigor, though not as rapidly as with the shorter bullets. Now for a range-session to top it all off!

Thanks for the words of encouragment, wisdom and experience.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Mikey]

Sweetwater - hey, let us know how it shoots.  Also, a handgun trick for a rifle might help if you like shooting the heavier slugs but the col is such that the rifling marks the slugs - have the forcing cone relieved to 11 degrees.  We do this with revolvers so flat nosed or sharp shouldered slugs center evenly in the barrel and do not lead up the barrel.  It's a pretty easy technique that any gunsmith or handy gun owner can do - materials and the like might be available from MidSouth but should be available from Brownells.  Might make chambering the heavier slugs a bit easier.

And yes, Winchester lever actions need to be worked with vigor, as they say.....

[Sweetwater]

Mikey-
Thanks for the tips. When I get over this inate desire to shoot the pistol bullets, I'll get Veral to cut me an LCFN, if it's long enough, or LFN at least and the feeding issue will go away. I can still play with the #357466 Lyman mold if I need that "light load, stress relief" shooting time, now that I know I can make them feed. It's been another adventure, and looks like it shall continue.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Sweetwater]

It's been a terrible year, and I finally got to the range - took a lay off to get the time...

Those little 147gr Lyman #357466 ran nearly 2000fps at minute of pop can! Cranking the lever with vigor allowed them to feed without jams - not to my liking as I prefer to be more gentle.

180gr LBT WFN's worked vigorously fed also, and lit the screens at 2450fps SD=5fps ES=11fps

185gr LBT FN's (from Gradyl41) at 2460fps (same load as above) though SD=24fps ES=73fps
Feeding was great at milder lever cranking.

228gr LBT LFN (from Gradyl41) at 2100fps, mild load, good feeding, SD=28fps ES=7fps

The surprise load was last: 220gr Speer FP at 2450fps right at 1.25"  for a 5shot group at 100yards and the stats were SD=6 ES=11

I received some 245gr Saeco's from HaroldClark, and they feed like no tomorrow! Need another day at the range, possibly next week. See if I get a job or not, that will tell the tale if I have the time.

Still working on how to get the rifle to softly feed the shorter rounds, but it may be a moot point after the next session.

Thanks, again for the insights.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[LONGTOM]

Most all of the Win lever models were designed to be cycled fast.
They were not intended to be babied or short stroked.
You have already found that out according to your last few posts.
Don't worry about being to hard on it, it will take it.
A round flat nose style bullet will help a lot if you still dislike the hard-quick style of chambering a round.
A lot of the old 94s got better at cycling the more you shot them.
ie: a little wear really helps smooth things up.



LONGTOM 

[Sweetwater]

I'm finding that to be totally true. My old 73, 86, and 94 can take gentle strokes as long as they are smooth and not a jerky motion. It was just the new BB94 that I seemed to have a problem that no one acknowledged the existence of.

I could solve this whole thing by just using the correct profile to start with, but what fun is that......

Regards,
Sweetwater