Whitetails with bow vs. handgun bullet?

[Questor]

This is the more active forum, so I'm asking here.  When I switch to using arrows instead of bullets, what kind of changes can I expect in the animal's reaction to the hit? What are the blood trails like? Is it basically the same as with a gun? Or do I need to do some things differently?

[Old Cane]

It depends on where the hit is, broadhead you're using and a list of other things. I have had them do everything from nothing, looking up from the sound of the shot, keep on feeding, "jumping the string" type of action or taking off slowly and stopping here and there.

Same with blood trails. If you get a though and through and hit an artery you may have a gusher. If you don't you may have none for 100 yards or more.

1) calm down
2) sit down
3) listen for the direction of travel
4) wait at least 30 minutes
5) while searching (if needed) get some help if you can, someone who won't trample all the sign
6) don't give up, find it

I guess somewhere in these tips should be try to find your arrow if it passed through. If it's still in you will probably have a good blood trail and may find part of it broken off somewhere on the trail if it narrows between trees. Arrow recovery can give you some indication of where you hit. It's hard to see if you're alone and take a shot.

[Questor]

Great! Thanks Old Cane. It sounds just like handgun hunting, except for a lower probability of a good blood trail.

By the way, I checked your site. I studied bamboo flyrod restoration and occasionally still fish with one of my projects. Mine isn't one of the great marques, but just an old Heddon 8 foot 7 weight that was probably made in the 1940s.  It's not worth much, but it's beautiful. It has a really great action for an el-cheapo bamboo rod. It's enough to convince me of the old adage that bamboo is like a living thing, and has a different quality than graphite.  Unfortunately I got to learn the invisible wrap repair technique when I snapped too hard when freeing a fly from a rock one day.  My reel for it is an old horizontally mounted automatic reel made of aluminum. It's a funky and beautiful looking thing, but it works.  Do you restore your rods?  

I've also got a telescoping steel 9" rod. I fished with it once just to try it out. I was so repulsed by it's wretched action that I have not used it since.  Caught a few, though.

[Old Cane]

Is my site working? I thought I had cleaned it out. My hosting company had been screwing around for a while so I moved it to my other site at saddleandspur.net. I keep changing that in my profile but oldcane.com seems to keep coming back.

I remember seeing some of those steel rods. Yikes!

I haven't done any restoration. I've been lucky enough to get them in good working condition at a chea......low price. That's something I'd like to do but never have.

Be careful when fishing for rocks. Seriously, they have rock fish here in TN. I think we called them stripers in OK.

[markc]

you must understand what kills the deer.  With Archery, it is blood loss.  It is not shock to the CNS, or breaking of large bones,  it is blood loss.  SO if you place the arrow with a quality broadhead( I recommend atleast 3 razor sharp cutting edges, check you local laws regarding this) through the lungs, you have a dead deer, same with a heart or liver shot.  


Of the two I have taken this season, one arrow caught one lung (quartering towards) and went through the liver.  I heard the deer go down after he took off like a rocket.  There was no exit hole, but he left a good amount of blood at the initial hit spot, broke off half the arrow and took the other half including broadhead with him a mear 40 yds.   That was a fair body sized cull buck.  Ther doe was shot downward through both lungs at only 10 yds and fell just out of sight of my stand.

How does a bullet kill?   I will let someone else answer that,  but mostly it does a good (hopefully) amount of damage to internal organs adding a shock to the system etc..etc..    They may react the same,  but a complete pass through with an arrow through the lungs should leave a good blood trail.   Good luck.
markc

[BruceP]

I have to agree with Mark on this one. If you make a good heart/lung shot you should get a good blood trail. I have had as good or better blood trail with my bow as I have with a rifle.(270 win. and 257 Roberts) I have yet to shoot a deer with a handgun though. Maybe this will be the year. I do have a little different philosophy as to my Archery set up than seem to be the norm today. I use more of a medium weight arrow instead of the ultra-light weights and about 60-63 lbs of pull with my compound bow, and fixed 3 blade broadheads. I still get about 265-270 fps which is plenty for any shot that should be taken with a bow. This has given me a complete pass through on all deer shot except for one which was shot in the spine at about 5 yds. from the base of the tree. (Didn't really need a blood trail on that one.  :wink:
BruceP

[340wby]

LOOK HERE FIRST

http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html

read this

http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/mechanics.html

AN EXPANDING  BULLET  OR A LARGE CALIBER HANDGUN BULLET (ESPECIALLY ONE WITH A FLAT NOSE AND GOOD SECIONAL DENSITY )PLACED INTO THE ARTERIES ABOVE THE HEART  THAT DESTROYS THOSE ARTERIES RESULTS IN AN ALMOST INSTANT LOSS OF BLOOD PRESSURE TO THE BRAIN AND MAJOR MUSSLE GROUPS, THIS ALWAYS RESULTS IN DEATH, AND  WITHIN A FEW SECONDS, NORMALLY WELL UNDER 30 SECONDS,USING A BULLET AND SHOT PLACEMENT THAT BREAKS MAJOR BONES ON THE WAY OUT AND LEAVES A LARGE EXIT WOUND, CAUSES EVEN GREATER BLOOD LOSS AND SHOCK

IN A HANDGUN BULLETS LIKE THESE




will get the job done when placed correctly and driven to 1000fps or more,
keep in mind your not going to get good relieable expantion AND deep penetration from jacketed bullets, cast bullets can give both moderate expansion and deep penetration

READ THIS
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/penetration_test.htm

keep in mind that the 310 grain lee bullet from a 44 mag or 445 super mag, will pass completely through a large (300lb)hog from most angles (done it many many times)

[Ullr]

Welcome to the great sport of bow hunting.  I enjoy all forms of hunting, but favor bow hunting if for nothing more then the peacefulness of it.

You don’t have too much to be concerned about with a blood trail with a good quality broadhead.  As markc said with archery blood loss is what kills the deer.  So by definition you should have a good blood trail with a good shot.  As a matter of fact I have on occasion seen larger blood trails from an arrow then from almost any gun.  That doesn’t mean that you are always going to get a great blood trail, but there’s no guarantee with a gun either.  The major difference is shot placement and angle are a lot more critical with a bow, as an arrow is more easily stopped by bone.  

It sounds like you have the right attitude about the sport, and being a handgun hunter I’m sure you already know the frustration of that cautious buck that stays just out of range.  Although these are the ones that keep us coming back and spur us to want to learn more.  Good luck on your hunting.

[340wby]

I also hunt with a bow (jenning uni-star 80lb/32" draw carbon arrows muzzy 125 grain broad heads)
the bow ,at least in my hands and skill level is limited to an easy effective range of  50- 60yards ,but 20yards-25 yards is ideal,and about maximum range for absolute perfect shot placement and 30-40 yards is much more comfortable, than 50-60 yards where I can only keep a 7-8" group
while with a 445 dan wesson super mag 100 yards is well within easy range plus getting a second well placed shot is far simplier. not only that... the pistol is much simplier to swing and aim quickly, and a twig in the way is of less importance.
any ELK killed with a bow is well earned!!! any BIG BULL taken with a bow is an exceptional achievement
I became a far better handgun hunter after several years of bow hunting deer/elk/hogs

[myronman3]

well i say use a two blade design(pentration is better and are proven more lethal if the shot is less than perfect).   put it in the right place and blood trails should be really easy to follow.  AVOID BONES!  especially the shoulder bones.   use your experience as a handgun hunter and youlll be fine.

[rickyp]

I will tell you from experance that you will not always get a good bloot trail from an arrow taht did not shoot trough. I shot a doe at 10 yards. I was using mechanical heads. the arrow hit with a load thump and as the doe ran off i could see the arow waving at me still in her side.
Me and my hbuntintg buddy looked for 2 days  and never found any blood, hair or arrow. this was a loss deer and made me sick. you can not track a deer with nothing to show where it ran. I will never use a mec. heat again. I will stick to my 125 gr thunderhears

[Graybeard]

Rudy, IF your arrow exits on a pass thru shot you'll have an excellent blood trail with most broadheads. If it doesn't exit you might or might not. The longest I've ever trailed a deer that was bow shot and found it was about 250 yards. It was hit in only one lung and was alive when I found it and required finishing. Back in those days I was using a 60 pound pull Bear Whitetail II bow with Easton 2114s and a chiesel point broadhead I think maybe a Wasp. Never did get a pass thru on any of the several deer I killed with that arrangement.

Changed to a High Country at 82 pounds using 2315s and Thunderhead 125s. Haven't failed to get a pass thru on any shot since. Matter of fact I've lost most of the arrows after they passed thru they just kept on going. That bow was stolen from me and I now have a PSE 80 pound bow still shooting 2315s and Thunderhead 125s.

So far I've hunted with my recurve some but never have taken a deer with it.

I highly discourage the use of those open on impact heads especially on the recurve you will be using. Get a good cut on entry two or three blade head. The Thunderhead is as good as it gets as far as I'm concerned but there are lots of good heads out there. Use a heavy arrow for KE to pass thru. Don't worry about velocity.

If you put the arrow in the right place which is lungs, heart or liver the deer won't usually go far. In my experience with several liver hit deer they fold as quickly as lung hit deer do. I've had about as many fold in sight of me as not. Seldom have to trail one over 100 yards. I agree with the comment above about waiting 30 minutes. No matter the hit.

Didn't once on a hit that I'm sure had to be double lung from the angle and blood sign. Was so sure he was on the ground I didn't wait the 30 minutes but went on after him. I found several places he fell and lost massive amounts of blood. It looked to me he lost all the blood he had in the first 250-300 yards. But 3/8 to 1/2 mile later he was still on his feet and the bleeding stopped. Heck no more was left to come out I don't think. I lost that deer. Still have a hard time believing that deer was on his feet rather than being dragged by another hunter who was high tailing it out ahead of me with him. Dunno. Just know I didn't get him and he shouldn't have been able to go that far with that much blood gone.

GB

[Lloyd Smale]

bows kill real well. Ive been bow hunting for over 20 years and have shot many deer with them and only lost one dear that I hit and thats because it started to downpour the minute after I shot it and it washed away the blood trail. I usually get a better blood trail with an arrow then I do with a handgun or rifle and find little difference in how far they travel after being hit.

[ras308]

I have to agree with everything Graybeard has said!!!  I do not believe in all the hype about 300 fps arrow flight and ultra-light arrows.  You will never get the penetration with the light versus the medium to heavy.  If you happen to make a marginal shot and hit a shoulder bone, the extra weight will help break the bones and get to the goodies.  I wish I could pull 80 lbs. after sitting rock still for 2 hours in 40 degree weather!!!  There are a couple of things I would add, I watch hunting shows all the time, mostly in the off season, I have yet to see any of them use a lantern to help recover a deer after dark???  The gas lantern is the best tool to use to assist in finding a blood trail.  If you will take a piece of foil and place it around the back of the glass it will act as a reflector.  The lantern will make the blood show up much better than a flashlight.  Also a rechargeable spotlight is a great tool, when you get to the last spot of blood you can use it to look around as last resort.  Use toilet paper to mark the spots of blood so you can determine and see the line of travel.  And last, with a marginal, gutshot, wait a minimum of 2 hours.  Do not make any noise getting out of your stand after sitting 30+ minutes, go back to camp, eat lunch and get only a couple of friends to help.  If you get too many people, there is too much tendancy to tromp around and destroy the trail.  Have lots of patience and Good Luck!!!

[Old Cane]

You have to be careful around here using a spotlight to find blood. If the deer is still alive when you find it it may throw up it's front hooves to sheild it's eye from the light. Make sure your finishing shot is in the body. It's hard to explain an arrow in both front legs.

[ras308]

I hear ya!!!  I only use the light as last resort after I've searched a very long time with no blood.  I have in the past, lost blood or not found any at all, and recovered the deer the next morning (without wasting the meat). In one instance the deer was lying in plain sight w/i 30 yards!!!  We were just unable to see with the lantern and regular flashlight.  Good Hunting!!!

[The Pistoleer]

I sure agree with ras308 about the use of a gas lantern for following a blood trail.  They make the blood almost glow.

One thing you need to consider with both a handgun and a bow is that if you hunt from a tree you don't get so high that you can't get both lungs.  I made that mistake years ago because I wanted to get my scent above the ground.  
When my shot came I found that I was looking more at the top of the deer than the side.  I managed to put my arrow just to the near side of the spine and took out the carotid artery and went down into the heart.  The blood trail  came from the top as the blood spurted out of the entry wound.  I wouldn't want that shot again.  Too small of target and if the artery isn't hit there won't be any blood trail until the chest cavity fills and the blood flows from the top.    

Pete

[dakotashooter2]

Because there is little or no shock involved with a bowshot often the deer will not even realize it has been hit and will bleed out in a short period of time. Ever cut yourself and not realize it untill you started to bleed? Same thing.  While with a firearm shock is what initially puts the animal down or causes it to react with death usually coming immediately afterwards. In both cases death can come in seconds the difference being in one case the shock has shut down all systems while in the other the deer does not know it is dead yet and can still function for a period.

[crawfish]

First and formost I always try for no blood trail to follow. I want that deer to fall right where it is. Because of my lack of mobility from the very first shot I took on a deer, with a handgun, I have always placed my bullet to break both both of the joints that connect the shoulder blade to the leg. That shot placement does two things; 1 breakes down the deer (animal) so it can't move off; 2 to takes out all the big blood vessels at the top of the heart, no leggs, no heart, no movement, no blood trail, no problem. Because of this personel requirement I do pass up many shots that a more mobil hunter could take, but we have a long season with a very liberal bag limit so I don't feel pressured to rush shots. As for arrows..... when I was first recuperating from my treestand fall my wife would bring hunting videos home for me to watch while I was layed up in bed (17 weeks) with my broken neck. Until that time I never knew how good arrows killed and how differently deer reacted to an arrow strike. I had that trout look on my fact more that I can count as my reaction to what I was seeing. I have a tape (I think it is a Fitzgerald video) of a very large buck just tearing up a small bush, at the strike the deer throws up it's head and just goes back to raking that bush while the blood is just running onto the snow beneath it. That deer died right at that bush.  My two sons bow hunt and they both told me that the important thing is to make sure that one of those holes is low enough to leak, they wait for steep angles to strike the top of the going in lung and the bottom of the going out lung but they pass shots also that other hunters would and do take.