Author Topic: What should pot temp. be?  (Read 2248 times)

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Offline shakey

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What should pot temp. be?
« on: January 24, 2010, 07:59:20 PM »
Veral...... I am getting poor mold fill-out (wrinkling and rounded edges) and think I am casting too cold.

I am using an old Lee bottom-pour pot and one of your 2-hole molds, casting 260 gr .453 WFNs from WW.  Don't know if I am casting too slow and letting the mold get cold or too fast and letting my pot get cold. Part of the problem may be that I have been adding my sprues back to the pot as I cast.

I have not had a thermometer to see what is going on but just bought one hoping it will help identify my problem.  Trouble is ...I don't know what pot temperature to aim for.  What say you ?  What temp should I run my pot at ?

Thanks in advance Veral.  It is so nice having someone to turn too for a straight-up no BS answer.

Offline Veral

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 08:02:39 PM »
  The simple answer is,  if you are having trouble with fillout, wrinkles etc, run the alloy hotter and cast at a faster rate.  800 deg is a good temp and where I keep my mold cutting test pot running all the time.  Cooler is better and casting rate can be faster if you can keep the mold hot.
  If one doesn't have a lead thermometer, a sliver of dry pine dipped in the melt will char quite rapidly, say in 5 seconds, when at a good casting temp.  If it lights up after 10 seconds or so, the melt is hotter than it should be.  It will turn brown very slowly if too cool to cast well.  Other woods are ok too, but a shaving off a piece of pine board is easy for most people to lay hands on, and the pitchy wood is a better indicator of temps than a wood that doesn't have pitch.
Veral Smith

Offline shakey

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 09:23:37 PM »
Quote
Cooler is better and casting rate can be faster if you can keep the mold hot.

Are you saying run the pot cooler and keep the mold hotter by casting faster or by using some other heat source?

Are there max and min pot temps I need to watch out for?

Thanks again.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 08:58:48 AM »
Maybe I can help here. My LEE pot, I simply turn it on and up as high as it will go. When the bullets get too hot, they will look frosted. some frost is ok, some don't like any frost. As the bullets get frosty, I add another mold to my rythm, which allows the mold to cool just a touch between castings. If I start getting wrinkles or rounded edges, I take a mold out of the rythm. I end up with all the primary bullets I want and a bunch from other molds as

As always, experience is the best teacher, but I thought you mis-read something Veral posted. If you run your pot on the cool side, it will take longer for the mold to come up to temperature and it will take longer for you to get good bullets. Too hot creates frosty bullets which can become brittle if allowed to be too frosty, and too hot creates more fumes which cause more discomfort to the caster (YOU) and anyone close by. HTH

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline shakey

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 06:51:00 PM »
Thanks Sweetwater,

That's about how I try to do but with the pot as high as it will go and running only a single 2 cavity mold I can't make a frosty bullet no matter how slow I go. Sounds like it's time for a new pot ...a shame, mine is only about 30 years old.  :) :)

I just checked and Midway has their pots on sale so, I ordered a new one. I have a feeling my problem is about to go away. This problem has prompted me to finally get a thermometer, I just haven't had a chance to use it yet.

I did feel like I was mis-reading something ...I just don't understand the "Cooler is better" part.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 08:17:01 AM »
"I did feel like I was mis-reading something ...I just don't understand the "Cooler is better" part."

I think that goes along the line of; "after your lead is up to temp and your mold gets up to temp, the cooler you can run your lead and still have good bullets is the best place to run your pot."

 At least that is how I interpret it. If I run my LEE at full temp, I can frost at least two molds unless I add a third mold. Occasionally I have to add a fourth mold, but not very often. Depends on how big they are and how many cavaties. My pot is about the age of yours, mid-70's as near as I can recall - I bought it used in the early 90's, but I knew the original owner and have a pretty good idea of when he started it.

Hope that helps.   

Veral? Correct me as necessary?

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline shakey

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 12:28:58 PM »
That makes sense. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

I seldom run more than one mold. I try to adjust the temp and casting speed to get bullets barely below frosting or maybe frosting only a little and water cool.  I don't know if that is good or bad ...just the way I do it.

Thanks again.

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 12:30:24 PM »
Shooting will tell you if they are good or bad. IF they do what you want done, they are good.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline sixshot

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 05:20:55 PM »
  I wouldn't drop the sprues back into the pot, save them until your pot gets low & then add all of them at once, continually adding them will keep changing your alloy temp.

Dick

Offline shakey

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »
Thanks for all the help guys.  I have been away from bullet-making for several years and the first session back didn't go very well.  As I think about it, I realize I was going about it kind of haphazard.

I now have some fresh WW alloy, a shiny new thermometer, and a Lee 20# pot on the way. I have made lots of good bullets in the past and am sure I will again as I get back into it.  I guess I have a few lessons to be relearned.  Keep the advice coming though ...it is all appreciated.

Shakey

Offline Veral

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 07:10:07 PM »
  I strongly suspect that there are probably 50 lee pots out there for every one of all others combined, so I perhaps should say a bit more about them.
  If you are casting in a cool or cold breezy place where the breeze can hit the pot stand which houses the thermostat, lead temp can run up to a warm red glow, which is a good 1000 to 1100 deg F.  If casting in a real warm area with no breeze lead temp can be barely high enough to melt the alloy.  Take these facts into consideration when using Lee pots.  The reason is because the thermostat which in theory is to be heated only by radient heat from the pot, is negatively effected by the above.

  If it wasn't clearly understood.  To obtain the fastest casting rate possible, run your alloy temp as low as possible and still get quality bullets.  A lee pot isn't for this though.  I believe all the others are, as they have their thermostat close to the melting pot.  If you try to run at the lowest heat possible, it will take a lot longer to get your mold up to running temperature.

  Another point of interest about Lee pots is that the thermostat never turn off, because it has a heavy resister which always carries current to the heat coil, whether the contact points are open or closed.  I haven't checked to see what the amp draw is with the contacts open, but it is high enough to maintain considerable heat at the element.  When the contacts close, full wattage is applied to the heat coil.
Veral Smith

Offline shakey

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 06:52:21 AM »
This is very helpful but it makes me wonder how I ever made any good bullets at all without a thermometer.  Maybe they weren't as good as I thought.   Anyhow ...I'll be watching temps better now. 

With what you have told us about the Lee pot I sorta' wish I had spent the money for something better.  I think with your info though I will be able to make it work OK and am looking forward to getting started again.

Thanks again all,
Shakey

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 09:13:24 AM »
Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.

I used a borrowed Lyman 20# pot when I first started. I turned out a lot of really good bullets without a lot of fuss from me. Bullets good enough to win IHMSA matches (including a state match) and harvest antelope, whitetail and mule deer, and black bear.

I acquired my "used" LEE 10# pot after I had stopped competitve shooting and so didn't need the quantity, or the quality for that matter though I still strived for the best that could be. Economics was the bottom line. Economic it has been. I've taken it apart twice and cleaned the coils (mostly rust) and leveled the pot (I tend to leave it with lead in the pot and it wants to bend - gravaty). The bottom pour is a PITA as it clogs and the ram that plugs it is bent and, and , and, until life turns around, it will have to do.

Veral might recall a question I had to him last year about temperature and running the LEE pot basically outdoors in the Spring. I do not use a thermometer so have no idea what the temp was running, but it was cold and the bullets were terrible. After conversing with Veral, we cleaned out a portion of the shop, left the doors up and put a windbreak on the back side of the table we were working from. The next batch came out much better in the looks deaprtment, also weighed more consistently. Can't say they shot any better as we were using a 25yd target and shooting offhand. It takes a very bad bullet for that to show up on my target. I shoot off a bench too much and don't shoot enough period, so my offhand shooting eats my lunch. Kind of wish we had an IHMSA group in this neck of the woods as I could probably get re-interested now that I'm semi-retired - read that unemployed. LOL My wife calls it "practicing for retirement"! She has a sense of humor.

My usual is to run the LEE pot near the top of the themosat. When the bullets start to frost, I add another mold to my routine. If I get to a third mold and still get frost, I will probably turn the pot down a whisker, but that doesn't happen very often. If I go to a fourth mold, it makes for more difficult sorting (for me) and harder to maintain the order as some will still get hotter than others as I mix aluminum molds with the others. I also have the bad habit of putting the sprue right back into the pot, which will also keep the melt cooler, which I believe bothers the dippers more than the bottom pourers as the bottom will tend to stay hotter than the top - even though heat rises. Check out a pot of tomato soup, or any other soup, always hotter the deeper you dip into it.

When you tumble onto your routine, you will surprise yourself. Good luck and happy casting. Stay safe.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway - John Wayne

The proof is in the freezer - Sweetwater

Offline Veral

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2010, 06:23:30 PM »
  Your wife is brilliant.  'Practicing for retirement.'  You have to admit it's nice living where all the ranges and hubbub are far away though!  That's my opinion on that matter!
  I fixed the slumping of the Lee pots by wedging a rod vertically under the pot and base, back where it wouldn't interfere with the mold while casting.  Out to the edge where it is stiff.  The bottom cover is real thin and will dent severely if any pressure is put on it.  If you want to stop the rusting of the heating coil, tip the pot sideways and run a little oil around it after shutting it down, and while it is still warm.  That will stop the rust while in storage, and smoke like Mt St Helens when you light it up the next time though.  But, it won't stop the oxidation from running red hot like it does most of the time.

  About the melt being hottest at the bottom.  - You'll find that a cold ingot is heavier than the hot metal and drops to the bottom like a rock in water, chilling the lead you would like to have run out the spout.  If an ingot is well heated before putting into the pot, or, if one holds it with channel locks, up at the top of the melt, until it melts, temperature at the bottom of the melt will be far less effected.

  Some years ago, I built ingot molds out of steel angle, 2X2 as I recall, and about 16 inches long.  When I filled them, I'd insert a wire loop at one end before the lead hardened.  A heavy paper clip works fine.  I would hang these from a hook, with cable over a pully, terminateing in a chain coming back down.  I could hook the chain on a row of screws in my pot vent shroud to raise and lower the ingot.  By hanging the ingot so it only went into the melt an inch or so, it would melt off without slowing my casting.  Then after it melted till there was an air space between it and my melt, the ingot end would be good and hot, so I could lower it enough to raise the pot level to the top.  The ingot would melt off but never run the pot over, keeping it topped off for as long as I wanted to cast.  I was able to cast 1600, 300 grain bullets an hour usin the RCBS promelt and no additional heat.  The longest uninterupted run I made was 4 hours as I recall.  About 6,400 bullets in one run.  That's a LOT of lead for a melter to liquify in that short a time!  I rigged up a melter that rendered down a couple hundered pounds of ww at a time to make the ingots, and had a line of ingot molds, so that part of the task went relitively quickly.

  If you want to make similar ingot molds, here is the trick.
  I used a large horizontal bandsaw to cut the angle.  They type saw used in most steel fabricating shops.  Tilt one end of the angle up a bit, with both legs down on the saw bed, so, with the cut starting at the point of the angle, the legs will be a little bit longer than the tip.  This makes a draft angle to the ingot comes out easy.  Knock off any burrs so the cut is flat, then lay them on a work table with legs down.  Use a piece of flat steel that is a little wider than the height of the angle being used, as it lays on the work table, and cut ends about 5 or 6 inches long.  Center them roughly on the angle, hold them snugly against the cut end of the angle and tack with and electric arc welder.  Tap the end down tightly if there is any space showing, then weld on the outside only.  There will be such a fine crack where the end meets the angle trough, when you turn the mold over, that no lead will get into it.  Ingots will fall out easily as soon as they are chilled enough that they don't break when you dump them.  It is easy and inexpensive to make up enough of such molds, making them as long as you want the ingots to be, that one can pour out 1 or 2 hundred pounds of lead in a few minutes, by cycling them soon as they solidify.
  If you don't want to mess with the hanging ingots trick I used, keep your ingot cross section smaller, like maybe one square inch cross section, and just stir time in like a rod.  I expect mine had a cross section of 2 square inches or more, as they were nearly 3 inches wide when I filled the two inch angle to capacity.
Veral Smith

Offline gypsyman

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 03:52:15 AM »
I use a RCBS Pro-Melt. And, use a Lyman thermometer. I keep the temp just under 800 degree's. At least that's what the gauge says. But, just to keep things going, when I cast in my shop, I have one of those kerosene heaters that I fire up. And have an old skillet that was going to be thrown out 20 years ago. I set that on top of the kerosene heater, and put 8-9 ingots in it, and let them pre-heat. I've never had them melt, but will sometimes get soft when I use a pair of pliers to fill the pot. Then I'll put the sprue's in also. Doesn't take much time, and I'm back up to casting. Usually 2 molds at a time. When things go right, lots of bullets in a short time. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Veral

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 05:14:04 PM »
  Preheating the charge lead is an excellent procedure with any pot, and especially the Lee's as they melt down a lot slower than other pots.  I've used both a propane camp stove and an electric hot plate the same way.  Doesn't stink like your kerosene heater either, but in cold weather the heat from your kerosene heater behind ones behind sounds real good.
Veral Smith

Offline pourboy

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 05:18:37 PM »
Here's how I determined my casting temp. I had an LBT 44 mould that wanted to be stubborn. I would get a wrinkle in both cavities in approximately the same spot. So I e-mailed Veral to whine a bit. Veral told me that I already knew the answer, which I did. The mould wasn't hot enough. So I quit being timid with my new mould and followed Verals directions. After the alloy was up to 800 degrees,my moulds like it hot, I dipped as much of the bottom of the mould in the alloy to preheat it. I tested the temp of the mould with my mould lube stick (not to self, order more of them). I touched the stick to the sprue plate pivot, and when the wax melted there, I pulled the mould back out of the alloy, wiped the bottom of it off, then did my precasting lube ritual with the lube stick. A quick touch to the alignment pins, and we're ready to cast. The pivot has already been lubed. The first bullets are pretty frosted, but perfectly filled out. As I cast, the mould actually cools, and the frosting becomes a light haze, and remains consistent. I always run 2 moulds at a time, so now I get #2 started in the same manner.
I only add sprues after the pot gets below 1/2 capacity. By then, I'm ready for a short break, I set the moulds on top of the pot to keep warm, then return in a few minutes, and start casting again. I should probably mention that I ladle cast, so my pace is a little slower than the bottom pour guys. If I follow this routine, Everything works out really well, and I get a good number of high quality bullets. BTW, has anyone priced store bought bullets like Cast Performance? Almost $50.00/hundred!! If I cast a meager 300 bullets from my LBT moulds, they have pretty much paid for themselves. Even with gaschecks.

Offline Veral

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Re: What should pot temp. be?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2010, 08:43:45 PM »
  Thank you pourboy!
Veral Smith