Author Topic: Which scale is right? (Read 1095 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** February 10, 2010, 08:01:34 AM »

I purchased a PACT electronic scale for swifter segregation of cases by weight. It came with a 20 GRAM test weight. I calibrate the electronic scale almost every use.

Last night I was throwing 24.5 grain charges by powder measure and weighing them on the PACT (later 190 grain cases). It did not want to settle for the odd-number, instead stopping at the even-number either above or below (24.4 or 24.6), while trickle charging.

So I got out the 5-0-5 and weighed the same charge on both scales. The PACT was higher by 0.2 grains in every instance, even on the 190 grain cases.

I have always trusted my RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it. I believe should use the PACT test weight (20 GRAMS = 308.6472 GRAINS) to verify the 5-0-5 accuracy.

How do I know if the test weight is "off"? Just trust it?

buffalo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:26:19 AM »

Rcbs Reloading Scale Check Weight Set! Then you know for sure.I'm betting your Pact is correct.I dont have a Pact but my Chargemaster is right on.You can use the weights in different sizes to double check any scale.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:58:52 AM »

Id have to say to trust the test weight. Also make sure your letting that electonic scale warm up properly. I leave mine on all the time but wouldnt trust readings till it was up and running at least 15 minutes at room temp. Id also wait to calibrate it till its warmed up properly.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2010, 10:11:06 AM »

Land_Owner

I would tend to trust the Pact , I have one along with a older 505 and the 505 is also off to the Pact by .01 to .02 , I think that my line of sight could be causing that , just from not looking at the beam of the 505 the exact same way every time .

stimpy

billy_56081 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2010, 11:13:42 AM »

Send the weight to me and I'll check it against my ASTM certified weights.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2010, 11:25:40 AM »

Also the problem could lie in your scale being nonlinear. Your electronic scale is built on a very cheep bending beam type load cell. Nonlinearity is very common with low cost scales of this type. Measuring down to .1 grain on this type of load cell is iffy at best. One way you could check linearity is to compare several different weights of bullets scale to scale and see if the error is consistent say .2 grains heavy on a 50 grain bullet and .4 grain heavy on a 100 grain bullet. Just because the scale is accurate at 20 grams does not mean it is accurate at 1 or 2 or 5 or 10. That is why when we test a scale we test it at several different places.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2010, 12:19:11 PM »

I also use a 505 and I trust it. You say you have used yours for years.

Quote

have always trusted my RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it. I believe should use the PACT test weight (20 GRAMS = 308.6472 GRAINS) to verify the 5-0-5 accuracy.

You have said in your own words the 505 has not let you down,and you trust it (correct)
without getting flamed for bad advise, or getting into one of those--this works for me thing.
In order to settle it in your mind you need an absolute known--A check weight that is certified.
They are expensive so the next best thing is a set of check weights like RCBS sells.
Zero the 505 to the exact pointer zero. and test both scales with the test weights. Do at least 3,-- low, Med, and one high. Remove any variables--drafts, Line voltage, Temp. change.
Also I agree with the above poster in your scale being nonlinear.
My money is on the 505

billy_56081 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2010, 01:45:27 PM »

Quote from: gray-wolf on February 10, 2010, 12:19:11 PM

I also use a 505 and I trust it. You say you have used yours for years.

Quote
have always trusted my RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it. I believe should use the PACT test weight (20 GRAMS = 308.6472 GRAINS) to verify the 5-0-5 accuracy.

You have said in your own words the 505 has not let you down,and you trust it (correct)
without getting flamed for bad advise, or getting into one of those--this works for me thing.
In order to settle it in your mind you need an absolute known--A check weight that is certified.
They are expensive so the next best thing is a set of check weights like RCBS sells.
Zero the 505 to the exact pointer zero. and test both scales with the test weights. Do at least 3,-- low, Med, and one high. Remove any variables--drafts, Line voltage, Temp. change.
Also I agree with the above poster in your scale being nonlinear.
My money is on the 505

Yeah they are expensive I have about 10,000 dollars worth of them.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:33:14 PM »

RCBS Certified Check Weights? Load cell non-linearity? Fifteen minutes for the PACT to warm up? Could the Laws of Physics be bending in my Black Hole of a reloading room? (just kidding).

0.20 grains is a big deal. I know because my confidence is a big deal. At the range today, the rounds I made last night, rounds that SHOULD have been sweet at 200 yards in that rifle and cliber, were ALL OVER THE TARGET. My confidence is SHOT! another range session is in order.

Some folks throw charges by volume and report excellent results. some folks throw charges by weighing every charge. Others weigh every tenth charge. Maybe there are other ways too.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:35:40 PM »

I work on scales for a living. And if I had to bet on one or the other being correct I would bet on the bem scale.

doninva · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:48:40 PM »

Bought an electronic scale and after 0 changed on me twice, I got the 505 out and am not sure where I put the electronic scale. I'm a electrical tech, so I trust the balance beam more than the electronic circuit in the scale. Don

necchi · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2010, 03:57:33 PM »

Quote from: Land_Owner on February 10, 2010, 03:33:14 PM

Some folks throw charges by volume and report excellent results. some folks throw charges by weighing every charge. Others weigh every tenth charge.

This part, "Some folks throw charges by volume and report excellent results."

Reminds me, that this is the internet,,and some people LIE!

Do like I do, take most of it with a grain of salt,,then when you see the same answers from several different sources you can begin to believe a "proper procedure" has some merit.

Anyway's, if you move a scale,,or so much as lean an elbow on the left side of the table in stead of the right side of the table, any scale will change it reading.
Stay with your origonal purpose with each scale, use 1 for cases, the other for powder.

gray-wolf · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2010, 03:57:56 AM »

OK lets slow down before you start going down the rabbit hole of no return.
What you have been told about scales is true, Sometimes we expect a little to much from a $150.00
unit. I know the scale Geeks will correct anything I say if it's wrong, or support what I say if it is true.
I don't want to get into load cells and leaning on tables, and having to put on a special hat to use a scale. I believe most of it to be true, but it has no place in my reloading world--(yet)

I do hope a scale type person will chime in and help us in a way we can understand, and relate why a scale that goes to 0.0 can not be as accurate as a scale that goes to 0.00 or 0.000, in relation to why our trying to weigh a 1/10 of a grain is not working for us. Perhaps in reality tell us what we can expect from our equipment.
Hold on I will get back to you soon, I have a little more to say. It's just how I do things.
The scale on my RCBS charge master seems to work very well for my use. I agree there is a lot of crap on the net from some people. I love this one
" I have a scale I paid $34.95 for and it works like a charm accurate as all get out,do all my loading with it, and my 8MM military stock rifle shoot sub 1" at 150 yards ".
Dream on is all I can say.
I would put the electronic scale in a drawer for a while, and get back in the groove with the beam scale.
Get your confidence back in the fact that what used to work is still working.
The two scales you have will never talk to each other in a way that shows them to be on the same page. A set of RCBS check weights will not cost you a lot, and at least you can have piece of mind about the beam scale ( accurate to a tenth--remember )
If you are not pushing the load envelope and your beam Say's 49.6 grains is your load and that's the one that shoots for you, well what does it matter if it is 49.7 ? As long as it is repeatable.
It sounds like yours has been for you.--Fall back, re group, and get back on track.
If you drop your powder from a powder measurer --put it on the electronic and then on your
beam scale you will go nuts chasing one or two tenths of a grain and never get anything done.
If you want to up grade at a latter time I would consider an RCBS Charge master combo.
$250.00 on sale at times. Very user friendly, easy to set up and use. Drops 60 grains of stick powder in about 20 seconds. In that amount of time you can verify on your beam while the next charge is dropping. I use two scale pans that weigh exactly the same on my beam scale. The electronic scale
does not know the difference just zero one of them.
Sorry for all the talk I hope I shed some light on things for you.
Put the plug in scale away for now.

GW.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2010, 05:19:59 AM »

Played with electronic scales for awhile, gave them away.
I have no time for warm up, zeroing, and temperature changes.

I use a 1960 Redding, a 1966 Bonanza, and a 1970s 10-10 RCBS.

They all zero the same. The redding I use for all my rifles, the Bonanza is my back up (got it brand new in the box for $20)
The RCBS 10-10 I use for weighing cast boolits. It was $30 at a gun show.

Rocket Man · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2010, 11:06:27 AM »

Quote from: Land_Owner on February 10, 2010, 08:01:34 AM

................I have always trusted my RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it. I believe should use the PACT test weight (20 GRAMS = 308.6472 GRAINS) to verify the 5-0-5 accuracy.

How do I know if the test weight is "off"? Just trust it?

AND

Sometimes we expect a little to much from a $150.00
unit.

Yup, does make everything come to a screeching halt. You need to test both scales, and the weight for the electronic scale. If the test weight is different result one of them is off. Find someplace that uses small scales like a jeweler that will test both scales and the weight.

Everybody is dead set on beam scales and thinks they are perfect - no scale is! I like electronic scales and have a cheeep one from Hornday I also have 2 beam scales and don't use 'em.

Quote from: Land_Owner on February 10, 2010, 08:01:34 AM

Sometimes we expect a little to much from a $150.00
unit.

Er, ah, um, how much are the beam scales I forget...............
Bill

drdougrx · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2010, 11:52:28 AM »

I wouldn't use a beam balance at all....nothing wrong with them mind you...but...electronic balances are simply more precise. I have a PACT and have had it for years. I also have access to oil dampened lab balances that can weigh to the 4th place beyond the decimal point. I've compared charges weighed on the PACT and on the lab balance and they are close enough not to make any difference. What I mean is, a charge that weighs 25.3grains and 25.3654grains makes NO difference in the accuracy of a cartridge...that's my opinion (and what I have observed with my 223, 270 and 300win loads, didn't bother testing others because a balance that sensitive is PITA to use). My PACT can be calibrated and came with brass check weights. These weights are the same as we use in the pharmacy, the exact same. I have also learned that when I turn on the scale, I hit the "tare" button twice and then place the metal pan (which came from my lyman beam scale) on the pan of the PACT. The weight of the pan is 133.5grains so when the display shows 133.5 and doesn't change, I know the balance is zero'd and I then hit "tare" again to zero the balance with the pan in place. However, I think they are faster to use than a beam balance, BUT, that depends on your technique ( I have great technique learned in pharmacy school and by practicing for nearly 30 years).

BTW...I have a set of Lee Dippers, they are enormously helpful in throwing charges and I can usually throw the correct charge 50% of the time and am over or under by .3 or .5 the rest. When my technique is good, (and I haven't had too much coffee) I can throw the correct charge for 7 or 8 out of 10 rounds (rifle).

My 2 cents.....FWIW.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2010, 12:04:00 PM »

Doug your statment that electronic scales are more precise is false. In the metrology lab where they certify test weights that are used to certify scales are tested on a mechanical balance. Trust me on this one, I do this for a living. Now iti is true that electronic scale are easier to use, but no they are not more precise.

mechanic · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2010, 12:22:53 PM »

drdougrx

Like you I use dippers to charge my scale and a trickler to finish it off. After practice, the dippers get pretty doggone close. I usually file my dipper just a bit to make it weigh a half grain or so low, then trickle the rest. I then label my dipper for powder and weight. I have one dedicated to each powder and cartridge. The diff. is, I use a balance beam, which I check zero on often.

Some powders are so exponential, I don't trust that extra .2 grains not to be too much.

I have thought about an electronic scale, just never got one.....

drdougrx · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2010, 12:31:29 PM »

I believe you Billy. Really...folks need to do what they are comfortable with.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2010, 01:07:06 PM »

One thing about electronics is that they are easier to read. A problem with testing and calibrating a scale at only one weight is that you could have an error in a different area. Having checking a scale at 1,2,3, 4 and 5 grams will show the accuracy of the scale in the area where it really count for reloading.

drdougrx · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2010, 02:33:37 PM »

Yeah Billy....been there, done that. Torsion balances and the like. I have several whole sets of weights, even scruples. Look....for me...in a rifle cartridge with 50-60gr of powder, a consistant charge weight is important and I'm happy with what I'm getting. I...I....I don't feel a 1/10th grain makes any difference whatsoever in a rifle cartridge. Sorry, that's what I think and I don't feel the need for checking readings at multiple weights for handloading rifle cartridges. If I were compounding a prescription, I wouldn't be using a PACT. Prescription balances are certified by the state and should be checked with multiple weights, several times a year, at least in compounding pharmacies. Correction?

Steve P · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2010, 08:07:18 PM »

IT DOESN"T MATTER!! Nope, IT DOES NOT MATTER which scale is right. Doesn't have to be within multiple grains AS LONG AS IT IS CONSISTENT for YOU.

Welcome to another GRAY area of reloading. The old Weight vs Volume debate. Many of us get out our scales and trickle our charges to exact measurements by weight. When we get to the range there is an elderly gentleman down the shooting line who used his cut off rifle casing and dipped each of his loads directly out of the powder bottle. He is shooting smaller groups and we are scratching our head over which direction to change the weight. Which is it? The exact weight of the powder? Or is it the exact volume it takes up in the case?

Unless we all get our scales certified, and store our powder in controlled temperature, adjust for elevation, and use the exact lot number, we ARE NOT going to get exactly the same weight when weighting out powder charges. Don't get me wrong here, they can be close, but are they exact? Doesn't matter.

I need to work up my loads for my gun using my lot of powder on my scale. As I work up my load my charge weight is usually arbitrarily picked out of a book load, suggestion load from a friend, or some other resource. If I am working up slowly using my equipment, my notes, my brass, bullets, etc. it does not matter if my final charge is 24.4. 24.6, or even 25.0. AS LONG AS I am using my equipment the same each time and working up to the same weight for MY GUN. It's just another reference point to document.

This is why we all use manuals and start low in the weight spread and work our way up. IF suddenly our scale becomes inconsistent or unreliable, it is time to find a new scale. If it continues to work for us, year after year after year, even if .5 grain off, it doesn't matter as long as we have safely worked up to this load and we stay consistent also.

Have to use common sense here. We all have to rely on manufacturers to provide good products. They are not going to be perfect, but they are going to be relatively close in degree of measurements that we use. +/- .2 grain is not going to make much difference in 99% of the instances that any of us would see.

You also have to consider one of the cardinal rules in every reloading manual. If you change any component, you should safely work your way back up to your charge. In this case, pick a scale and use the one you pick. That is your load from now on.

Steve

gotta start the water flow, there are sure to be flames on this one.

drdougrx · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2010, 02:30:23 AM »

Thanks Steve......was splain'n myself into a fury.....

mechanic · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2010, 02:49:27 AM »

Steve,

+1

Ben

buck460XVR · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2010, 02:52:15 AM »

Quote from: Steve P on February 12, 2010, 08:07:18 PM

IT DOESN"T MATTER!! Nope, IT DOES NOT MATTER which scale is right. Doesn't have to be within multiple grains AS LONG AS IT IS CONSISTENT for YOU.

Welcome to another GRAY area of reloading. The old Weight vs Volume debate. Many of us get out our scales and trickle our charges to exact measurements by weight. When we get to the range there is an elderly gentleman down the shooting line who used his cut off rifle casing and dipped each of his loads directly out of the powder bottle. He is shooting smaller groups and we are scratching our head over which direction to change the weight. Which is it? The exact weight of the powder? Or is it the exact volume it takes up in the case?

Unless we all get our scales certified, and store our powder in controlled temperature, adjust for elevation, and use the exact lot number, we ARE NOT going to get exactly the same weight when weighting out powder charges. Don't get me wrong here, they can be close, but are they exact? Doesn't matter.

I need to work up my loads for my gun using my lot of powder on my scale. As I work up my load my charge weight is usually arbitrarily picked out of a book load, suggestion load from a friend, or some other resource. If I am working up slowly using my equipment, my notes, my brass, bullets, etc. it does not matter if my final charge is 24.4. 24.6, or even 25.0. AS LONG AS I am using my equipment the same each time and working up to the same weight for MY GUN. It's just another reference point to document.

This is why we all use manuals and start low in the weight spread and work our way up. IF suddenly our scale becomes inconsistent or unreliable, it is time to find a new scale. If it continues to work for us, year after year after year, even if .5 grain off, it doesn't matter as long as we have safely worked up to this load and we stay consistent also.

Have to use common sense here. We all have to rely on manufacturers to provide good products. They are not going to be perfect, but they are going to be relatively close in degree of measurements that we use. +/- .2 grain is not going to make much difference in 99% of the instances that any of us would see.

You also have to consider one of the cardinal rules in every reloading manual. If you change any component, you should safely work your way back up to your charge. In this case, pick a scale and use the one you pick. That is your load from now on.

Steve

gotta start the water flow, there are sure to be flames on this one.

no flaming here....I completely agree. Changing your scale should be treated just like changing any other component.