Author Topic: What does your Encore measure?  (Read 714 times)

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Offline longwinters

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What does your Encore measure?
« on: November 06, 2003, 12:34:05 PM »
I have been messing around with my Encore 7m-08 (24" barrel) and measuring what the cartridge length should be.  My Nosler book says it should measure a generic 2.80.  I measure mine at 2.90 with Nosler Ballistic tips (140 gn).  This rifle seems to shoot the best with a cartridge length of 2.77.  Does this make sense?  I am somewhat math challenged.  But from what I have read I should take my measurement and deduct somewhere between .015 and .030 from it to find my best cartridge length.  This total of this seems to be way over the 2.77 figure.   :?  Can you steer me straight?

Thanks,

long
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Offline doc-and

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2003, 01:01:46 PM »
Longwinters, :D

What you really need to know is the throat length, ie, where the bullet comes in contact with the rifling in the barrel.  This is the overall length of your cartridges (read MAX LENGTH) you don't want your bullets touching the lands of the rifling as this will create pressure problems.  Usually best accuracy is achieved with the bullets seated a few thousand off the rifling. See Sinclairs catalog for measuring tools for measuring the overall case length or depth of throat and back off from there.  The reloading manuals are there only as a guide as each barrel will be different.  If you don't have or want to buy the equipment to do this measurements, maybe your local gunsmith will do it for you.  Best of luck

doc-and 8)
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Offline quicksdraw45

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2003, 02:18:29 PM »
When you look at the manuals and it list a COL (cartridge overall length) I would use caution in seating a bullet deeper than whats listed as it will raise the pressure of the cartridge Its no problem to have a longer cartridge as long as it is a safe distance off the lands of the rifeling.
I load all my ammo over the COL and at least .020 off the lands of the rifleing .

Offline AeroE

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2003, 04:50:36 PM »
Cartridge OAL is most important with respect to magazine length and then maximum seating depth (follow quicksdraw45's advice here).  In a single shot rifle, magazine length is not a consideration, so you get to determine the best lenght to use for your rifle/cartridge combination.

You need to learn to measure the length of the cartridge from the base to the bullet ogive - this is the important measurement for developing best accuracy.  

The old time method is best - size just 25% or so of the  neck of an umprimed cartridge, seat a bullet just far enough to get it started straight, then chamber the bullet.  The neck should be sized to provide just enough neck tension to permit withdrawing the cartridge from the chamber without pulling the bullet out of the case if it sticks in the rifling lands.  Two methods can be used to treat the bullet before chambering to make the origin of the rifling easier to see - the first is to polish the bullet bright with steel wool, the second is to darken the bullet with a marker or soot. The rifling will leave small rectangular marks on the bullet - this indicates the origin of the rifling you will work from.

Now, after the bullet is fully seated against the lands by closing the action, withdraw the cartridge and measure the length from the base to ogive.  Get the 6 sided tool from Sinclair to go with the 6 inch calipers you probably already have if you are reloading.  This length is your starting point for experimentation.  Unless many other shooters are getting best results with a particular bullet seated far off the lands (0.015 inches, for example), you should start with the bullet only about 0.001 to 0.002 inches off, then try 0.004 or 0.005 off, and so on to about 0.010 to 0.015 inches off.  If you have a good handloading mentor to supervise, you might even try a load with the bullet just touching the lands (this is where most benchrest shooters seat to), but be careful because high pressures are easy to generate (for damn sure don't use a maximum handbook load to start!).

If you don't have some sort of comparator to measure the length to the ogive, you can measure the OAL as an interim measure, but this isn't very satisfactory since bullet length varies - greatly in the case of HPBT's.

One other detail to note is how fast the chamber throat erodes as you shoot the rifle.  In good stainless barrels shooting .223 Rem, the throat will erode about 0.001 inches per 10 rounds.  This means that you will need to adjust bullet length as more rounds are fired.  [The good news is that the throat erosion slows, sometimes.]

After you go through this exercise a couple of times, it will make perfect sense and be no trouble at all.
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Offline longwinters

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2003, 01:33:11 PM »
I appreciate the info.  Although I do understand a few things about cartridge measurements etc... but this Encore is giving me a challenge.  It will shoot real well with Nosler Ballistic tips but does not shoot worth a nickel with Partitions.  I get an OAL of 2.90 with the BT's and 2.84 with the Partitions. I have read several times on this site that a lot of guys get best results at .03 off of their OAL. with the Encores. Then, I see that the "minimum cartridge length" should be 2,80.  I have worked up moa loads for all of my other rifles (not Encores) as well as my son's rifles(again not Encores). And it was not all that tough.  So I am looking for guidance.  Deer season starts next weekend and I would like to use this for my back up rifle in case of very foul weather.
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Offline longwinters

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2003, 02:16:19 PM »
OOPS, I ment 2.80 Maximum cartridge length not "minumin"  sorry.

long
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Offline onesonek

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2003, 02:27:06 PM »
LW,
  Each rifle is (barrel) is it's own master. Let it guide you. As mentioned 20 or .0050 off the lands,is an individual rifle prefference. maybe more,maybe less. If you want NP's, I found them to be accuate. But at times, you have to play around.

Offline Duffy

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2003, 09:21:04 PM »
Longwinters;
I have a 15" 708 that shoots well with the bullets seated .030 off the lands. It has a variance in the range of .030-.045. If you are measuring your bullets off of the tip you need to get a comparitor or tool that measures off of the ojive or curve of the bullet. The ballistic tip and the partition have different ojive shapes and measuring off of the tip will not give you the same distance from the lands. That may be why you are having accuracy problems. Even different weights of the same brand and type are different. To give you an example using my Sinclair compareter a 140 BT has a oal of 3.325 where as a 140g Partition has a oal of 3.285 and both are .030 away from the lands. By doing this most of the bullets I've tried shoot basicly the same, some maybe a little better than others but generally pretty close. I made a chart with the oal of all the bullets I have tried and keep it handy when loading them. It takes time checking all of them but worth it in the long run. Hope this helps ya some.

Ryan

Offline longwinters

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2003, 06:13:06 AM »
Hmmm... :eek: I guess I can't just get by with a caliper then.  But it still seems like it would work if I measure each bullet OAL in my rifle and then just back it off .015 - .030.  Sorry, I am a little slow . . . I guess I need a personal trainer :lol:

long
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Offline Duffy

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What does your Encore measure?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2003, 04:56:04 PM »
LW,
Yes that will work, just make sure that the lead tipped ones aren't mashed down. Even some of the BT's can vary some. It will get you in the ballpark and better than guessing.

Ryan