Accuracy and bullet choices

[JJHACK]

I have been reading this forum and others for a number of years now. One of the things I find weird is the need for ultra precise accuracy. Not only that, but also the willingness to exhaust all efforts to achive this at any cost or time investment.

Accuracy is a good thing don't misunderstand this as anything else. I just find it amusing that there is a relentless pursuit of this magical sub one MOA group size and the associated need to prove this out with whatever equipment is needed from a bench.

I have read here recently that the Ballistic tip bullet was chosen as a big game bullet because it's so accurate out of the shooters gun. I have heard this probably 50 times now from various "experienced" hunters. Many writing on these forums and many I have met or know in person. What is Accurate? What is "more" accurate? What is minimum Accurate? Who is the judge of accurate? If that ballistic tip is shooting your "needed" 1MOA group and another bullet shoots a 2" group do you automatically choose the more accurate one?

I might remind the readers this is for BIG GAME so there is no confusion on the topic. If a really good terminal performance bullet such as the partition, Aframe,Bear claw, BarnesX, is less accurate do you pick the Ballistic tip because it's the most accurate bullet in your gun? If your gun is an over bore magnum do you consider this as a factor in the choice? If you're hunting close animals or distant game does that factor enter in? Or does just the fact that it's the most accurate matter to you?

Accuracy to me means I can shoot a sub 2" group at 100 yards with some sort of solid rest. Since I don't belong to a range that means I throw sandbags on the hood of my truck and sight in while standing and using the bags for my rest. I typically click off a few shots and see what they look like. After that I'm shooting from a packframe rest, prone or sitting. Then I use my Snipepod usually sitting. In one location I shoot at there is a convienient stump I can roll up my jacket and shoot from while sitting.

Just looking at this from a numbers perspective if you shoot a 2" group at 100 yards that number translates to a 6" group at 300 yards and about an 8 inch group all the way out to about a 1/4 mile distand target. It's a safe bet that if you can hit an 8" target at 400 yards your gonna kill what you have shot at. More importantly though is the time involved to do this practice and preperation differently. The difference between shooting a 2" group and a 1" or less group requires a lot of work, and a lot of time for many people. Some guys will spend a ton of effort to get down under that magic sub 1" group size. I don't mean doing it once but making your gun, scope, loads, and skills so good it's a consistant performance standard for you.

I think as a hunter ( speaking only for myself) I would much perefer to spend the time hunting then working on bench rest accuracy. I would always rather be in the bush then on the bench. The biggest retort I hear from people when I suggest this is that they don't hunt in the spring and summer so they work on the loads to develope their magic 1MOA guns and when the season comes around they are ready. These are the same guys who have a job, kids, wife, and other interests to spread them selves over throughout the year.

When the season rolls around they have done little scouting, and really truth be told they know darn little about the game they are hunting. The majority of big game hunters know the bare minimum about the game they choose to hunt. Barely enough to kill it. Maybe if the time spent on the bench was spent on a study of the animals habits in the animals own backyard the shooting distance issue would be corrected with hunting skill rather then long range target skills.

Even a trip to the zoo or a game farm to look very carefully at live big game animals anatomy to see perfectly clear where bullet placement shoud be at various angles. Then when you see this animal in the wild and look through your scope you automatically line it up perfectly. Bring a camera and take study photo's for yourself to look over from time to time. Taxidermists are great at having anatomy photo's for thier work why should hunters be any different?

How about learning all the natural plants the animals eat at various times of the year, see and understadning their sign and their tracks. Learn about breeding habits and effects of weather. Yeah I know most of the "know it alls" will claim this is a boring waste of time and they already know whats needed.

When I do a sportsmans show or speak to a group most of the people attending don't know the difference between a grazer and a browser or a herbivore. Few understand the travel patterns of various game, few understand much at all about the animals they persue. However nearly all will tell you the velocity at any given yard of the trajectory path and the most recent tiny group size they have shot with their rifle.

When I hear the silly conversations regarding accuracy with a hunting rifle I usually listen in just for the humor value! So few of these guys really want to hunt. What they seem to desire is to be expert marksman long range snipers and just hope they are lucky enough to be within their insane distance limitations when they see something to launch a bullet at. Hunting? whats hunting? we just need to shoot good and be within the needed 1/4 mile plus range. It reduces walking hiking and climbing. The only effort is to post up on a ridge and shoot to the horizon. I know people who do this and have the gear to pull it off. I know it can be done by some guys.

What bothers me is that this type of shooting/ hunting is becoming more and more popular as it's promoted by a few guys who do this. Young hunters or inexperienced hunters seem to think this is the right way or "easy" way to be successful at big game hunting. Where does it end? How far will hunters eventually shoot? What is the practical or functional limit? The gun, scope, and accuracy has become their God. They honour this as if it were a shrine. They must do whatever is needed to satisfy the shrine of the accurate rifle. Their days and hours are all spent dialing in the best possible accuracy and picking the finest equipment to make this Shrine better then anyone elses shrine of shooting. I think it's becoming a serious sickness that hunting has turned into target sniping at distant living targets rather then actually HUNTING!

As far as group size I have heard the stories and seen the results so many times I can't even count them. Folks with the latest lazer flat rifles who boast of the long range accuracy and then miss at standing big game 100-150 yards away. That year or more of effort and developement to build a sub 1MOA load and rifle was all a waste of time because they missed an entire animal at what should be considered a given. Yet some toothless old hillbilly with one shoe and a rusty old 30/30 using wet 20 year old factory ammo would have crumpled it in it's tracks!

I have had hunters who wanted to shoot from 350 yards even though we could easily and effortlessly get 200 yards closer to the animals. These guys were trying to tell me that "this is what they do" so they shoot and miss or wound the game?? excuses follow and next time I get them to 150 yards. They shoot and miss over the back? Now what do I do? The guy wants to check his rifle " because something must be wrong with the scope". We go to the range and it's shot from sandbags, we find he is shooting one hole groups. Hmmmm To much time on the bench ya think?

Choose bullets that perform on tissue and bone, not those which shoot the most accurate. Who really give a rip if you shoot a sub 1MOA group? Penetration and performance on tissue and bone is the key far above a small difference in accuracy. A hunter with me that shoots a 2MOA group and gets on target fast and shoots well free hand to 100 yards and with an improvised rest to 200 yards is gonna kill a whole lot more game than almost anyone of these tack driving "expert marksman" with their Sierra match bullets or ballistic tips from their lazer flat magnum rifles.

I don't care if it's Alaska or Africa the situation is the same. You still need to be a hunter first and a marksman second. Don't let the priorities get reversed on you. Learn to hunt first and the shooting will be close enough not to worry about the super accurate rifles and hundreds of hours developeing the loads.

When the time comes to take that long shot and your practice has been OFF THE BENCH you will have a much easier go of it with your 2MOA setup and real practice then your sub 1MOA setup and all the shooting from the bench.

[Graybeard]

One excellent example of this is a story I've often told. It is the story of an old Remington Model 7 in 7-08. I bought this one not too long after Remington started making them. I'd guess late 70s maybe or very early 80s at the latest.

Took it to the range to sight in one day. Got it sighted in fairly quickly but it didn't seem to like the only ammo I had at the time which was the ONLY ammo made for it at the time RP 140 CLSP. Best it would do was about 1.5"-1.75" for three at 100 and didn't always do that.

This whole time I was shooting a squirrel was scolding at me from about 75-80 yards out. When I finished on the range I took a shot and killed him first shot. To this day that rifle has NEVER missed on game and has NEVER needed a second shot for a finisher. It has been used my me, my oldest son Bobby and now belongs to my wife. We've all three used it on a variety of game of all sizes in several states.

It is one of the least accurate rifles we own and yet when used by all three of us on game it is 100%. Reckon ya could say it shoots minute of fur.  

GB

[Lawdog]

I'll be the first to admit that I am an accuracy NUT.  Always have been, always will be.  I strive for that perfect one hole five shot target.  But this is target shooting NOT hunting.  I choose a hunting bullet by the way it performs on game.  I want a pass through bullet.  I want the exit hole that you do not get most of the time with polymer tipped, thin jacketed, boat tailed bullets.  I have been a Partition user for over 40 years and see no reason to change.  Why, because Partitions do just what they are advertised to do.  If the best group I can get with Partitions is say 1.5" then that will work.  I don't mind playing around with powder, primers and seating depth to milk the last bit of accuracy out of a rifle/load combo.  I just like to be able to know exactly where the bullet went when I squeezed the trigger.  Lawdog

[longwinters]

I agree with LD.  Being into accuracy does not make one an unethical or egotistical hunter/shooter.  It does not mean that I/we are morons concerning the "truth about hunting".  I love to hunt but I also love to shoot.  I like to reload and learn more about what makes a good cartridge tick out of a good rifle.  I enjoy the whole process.  We shoot from +85 degrees to   -20 degrees.  Sun, rain or snow . . .  it does not matter.  I have never shot a 1 hole group, but have shot under 1/2".  It is a thrill to look at those targets.  I figure every moment that I spend with my rifles in my hands is a priviledge and a responsibility. It is also the reason I keep coming to this fantastic website.  Information and patient people to answer my often simplistic questions. Varied opinions, encouragement and always a love for shooting and hunting. This is what Graybeard has built here.  Does (or should) it take priority over scouting and field shooting... if it does then the hunter is just fooling himself like JJ says.  But there is no reason a person cannot have both shooting and hunting.  To me one cannot be meaningful without the other.

long

[kciH]

I don't think there is anything wrong with accuracy, or the persuit of it.  From a hunting standpoint, I consider someone a fool who would use a improper bullet for hunting because it shot a smaller group than a proper, reliable hunting bullet would.  The thing I really question though, is all of the bench shooting that most hunters do when testing for accuracy, but the total lack of shooting from field positions, with sticks, offhand at shorter ranges, etc. etc. My favorite rifle to shoot is a Savage Scout in .308 with the peep sights, offhand, at 1 gal milk jugs filled with dyed water at 100 yards( finally found a good use for my cheap printer cartridge refill kit).  Make it 200 from the prone.  It makes for good practice and concentration since I typically leave the scope off, I feel it really makes me focus on the mechanics of accurate field shooting.

I also agree that time spent afield will make you far more of a hunter than being able to shoot small groups.  If you're a good hunter, any rifle that will shoot 2" groups will suffice because you're shots will be close.  I enjoy shooting as a leisure activity and reloading as well.  The gun range is far more accesible than good hunting land is where I live, so I admit that I spend more time at the range.  If I made more of an effort, instead of taking the easier route of going to the range, I would likely take more animals and animals of greater quality in my hunting endeavours. It's all a matter of priorities.

[markc]

I went to the Safari Club Intl' show over the weekend in the Woodlands Tx, and bought Craig Boddington's book, "Where Lion's Roar".  Then I met him and talked  to him for a while after he signed the book. My wife and I attended his seminar and he eventually got into rifles, calibers, bullets etc.  He said the same thing you said JJ about accuracy and the more important thing being the type of bullet chosen than being able to hit a tiny group sub MOA.

He said he has had clients who  missed a buffalo or made poor shots on game at 60 yds,  but when they sat at a bench, the rifle would group tiny groups at 110 yds or more.  He said,  more important than pin point accuracy, is choosing the right bullet for the game, not necessarily the one that groups best, and being able to shoot from a field situation and not just from a bench.  He said he has sighted in rifles using a truck hood as a rest and rather than spend lots of time at a bench working up the most accurate load, he wants to know can he, or a client hit the animal in the vitals from the field where there aren't any benchs and sand bags.  I found his seminar to be very informative and intersting.
markc

[freddogs]

I agree with Lawdog. You select a bullet for performance. I shoot a lot of Nosler Ballistic tips because they give me good performance on deer size animals. I use partition bullets for elk hunting. If I was to use the most accurate bullet out of my 30-06 I'd be using hollow point match bullets which shoot great.
We all need to improve our hunting skills. Tracking is a useful skill and awareness of the wind should be second nature. A close shot is always better than a long shot. Shooting skills is just a part of  hunting skills.
 I have several friends that can shoot much better than me off the bench but I know it doesn't make them better hunters than me. Doing all kinds of outdoor skills helps you become a better hunter.
This said, shooting is an enjoyable hobby in itself and that is why some people fix on it.
I guess you can have shooters that hunt and hunters that shoot. I have friends of both types and there is nothing wrong with either one. :gun4:

[onesonek]

I kinda fit in with Lawdog. I play with BT's or similar, but hunt big game with reliable penetration. I also like to find out what a rifle /handgun is capable of accuracy wise.