rust on a 209X50 stainless

[redfred]

My partner has a 209x50 in stainless. He is very meticulas (SP?) with his guns and we don't understand how this happened.  Has any body else had this problem? :eek:

[Billyboy]

Unfortunately, this does happen.  There are many different alloys of stainless and all are not 100% rustproof.  I assume the rust is in the bore maybe a day or two after a good cleaning?  I normally swab my barrel with a oily patch again the day after cleaning and sometimes there is a little rust color residue.  After switching to 777  powder, I have not had this problem.  Maybe it's less corrosive, maybe it cleans up better?  Just be sure to dry out the barrel before loading!

[savageT]

As you have personnally experienced, stainless steels are not "bullet proof".  Can you share with us what the cercumstances were that caused the rust?  What cleaning solvents did he use and what powder?  Did he dis-assemble the barrel or just run patches through the bore and wipe it down?  See if you can get the details so we can learn what he did wrong.  How bad is the rusting?  Is it pitted or only surface attack?  Perhaps T/C Technical Assistance should be included in your search for a good answer?  Thanks!


savageT

[EDG]

Stainless steels are not as simple as you might think. To be classed as a stainless steel requires an alloy be a minimum of 12 chrome.
The basic stainless alloy is called 18-8. It is 18% chrome and 8% nickel.
It is also called 304 stainless. The common stainless used for eating utensils is usually 302 or 304 stainless steel. This stuff is very difficult to rust but it has only fair strength. It is relatively soft and makes a poor knife. It is also rather slow and difficult to machine compared to some other stainless alloys.
A lot of high strength cast stainless is 17-4 PH (Precipitation Hardening).
This material will stain easily. (I know I have had to deal with thousands of medical instruments that stained during a poor cleaning  and passivating processes.) This is most likely what a stainless or Encore frame is made from. You need to take care of it like you would blued steel. To get the high strength a lot of carbon is used which makes the material more rust prone.
The commonly used material for center fire stainless steel barrels is 416
stainless. This material has some chrome and little nickel. It has a lot of sulphur to make it easy to machine. It will also rust easily if exposed to salts, and acidic or marine environments. So clean a stainless barrel like you would a blue barrel, especially if you have a stainless muzzle loader barrel.
The extreme corrosion resisting properties of 304 stainless is not present in the high strength and easily machined alloys. In addition some stainless steels are susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. If it is exposed to corrosion under high stress it will crack. That is why springs are not usually made out stainless steel. Stainless steels are also famous for galling. Some designers run 17-PH against 17-4 PH with high surface loads. Under these conditions 17-4 PH becomes what I call "Gall-O-Matic".
It is guaranteed to gall.
There are other materials that might provide the corrosion resistance that many shooters expect from the so called stainless steels. However shooters would not be willing to pay for them in most cases. You are better off taking care of the alloys that exist. It only took 40 years to get them widely accepted in the marked place.
Ed

[JCM]

This brought up a flag for me!!!!  

I read this, and read the post on the link.  I had the same problem a week or so ago.  (You can read my post "Rust removal on SS" in the TC handguns forum).  

Stainless frame owned for about 3 months, has had around 50 shots through it (centerfire/smokeless), hunted with 3 times (no rain), cleaned after every shooting session, and every hunt.  This is my first stainless gun and I'm not impressed.  I clean and wipe down all my guns carefully.  I've hunted with blued guns and muzzleloaders in all kinds of weather, always cleaned them carefully, and I've never had any rust on them.  I cared for this stainless gun in the same way, cleaning and oil, but a few very light spots of surface rust showed on the frame.  These spots could barely be seen, and were on the frame only.

I'm not happy with TC's SS.  To be truthful I'm very disappointed.  In my opinion, I've recieved a SS product at a higher price that under the same care has not performed as well as a blued gun at a lower price.  

On a positive note, fine steel wool and oil removed the spots very quickly.  I hope the future is better for my SS.

Take care,
Jay

[redfred]

Hey Folks you all are great.  JCM your problem is the same as my freinds.  Thompson told him to use steelwool and a light oil.  That was all they would say.  He got a converson kit for his remington and will be using it during black powder season. He got a 243 barrel to go with that frame. It's for his grandson to use.  If it wasn't for his grandson, I promise you it would be sold. Thanks everybody for chiming in for me. By the way HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!

[EDG]

>>>Bead blasting a good SS barrel with the same materials that have been used to blast the blued barrels could result in shallow impregnation of the SS with carbon steel (couldn't it?).<<<

This is a real problem in industry. Every company that beadblasts stainless steel get to learn this. The glass beads in the bead blast cabinet strike a carbon steel part or the steel cabinet and pickup traces of carbon steel. When the beads are recycled through the nozzle and shot onto a stainless steel part the beads transfer the carbon steel particles to the stainless surface. When the stainless is exposed to moisture it appears to rust or stain. All it really is is traces of carbon steel (free iron) rusting and staining the surface. Some free iron is normally picked up from vises, cutters and deburring tools during manufacture. It is removed by a process called passivation. This is a simple dip in 20% nitric acid. The acid attacks only the the free iron leaving a highly corrosion resistant surface on the stainless steel item. One of the worst ways  to remove a stain on stainless steel is to use ordinary steel wool on it. This just smears traces of iron on the surface so it can rust some more. Instead use Scotch Brite or the equivalent with no metal. If you use Scotch Brite use a new piece that has never been used on  carbon steel for obvious reasons.
Cross contamination of stainless can also occurr with a buffing wheel or a belt sander. Good manufacturing practice requires that stainless steel be passivated after all machining is completed.
Ed

[EDG]

>>>So what. Clean it up and keep shooting. Stainless will rust, the bluing on your guns are nothing but controlled rust. Get over it.<<<

Naw, you get over it. It was civil until you came along.

[Underclocked]

I didn't realize that I wasn't logged in when I posted the link to similar problems at Realtree and about the  blasting/cross-contamination of steels.

Just to clarify, I wasn't the latter "guest".

Happy New Year all!

[redfred]

Hey EDG, Everything you have brought up makes perfect sense. This is what I'm going to do, I'm printing this whole topic and giving it to my freind. this has been bugging the day lights out of him.  Thanks every body.

[JCM]

"One of the worst ways to remove a stain on stainless steel is to use ordinary steel wool on it. This just smears traces of iron on the surface so it can rust some more. Instead use Scotch Brite "

Oh Boy.....  Thanks for the heads up.  It looks good now, but I'll see if it stays that way and go with the scotch if needed.  Thanks again to everyone for the information they've shared.

Take care and happy new year,

JCM

[Jeff Vicars]

Stainless Steel Wool should be used on stainless.

[jerry68]

Used to see rusty stainless all of the time in Florida.  Charter Captains would buy stainless firearms for their boats, would toss them into a lockerm on the boat, pull them out after a year and come back to the shop complaining about how the "defective" steel had rusted.  Salt air and neglect will rust stainless like you would not believe!

[Gary T]

I've heard nothing but good from others in using Scotch-Brite for rust removal, but I've NEVER been able to find any in order to try it out.....  :? What's your favorite store for buying Scotch-Brite? Gary T.

[EDG]

>>>I've NEVER been able to find any in order to try it out.....  What's your favorite store for buying Scotch-Brite?<<<
There are some Scotch like products at the super market for cleaning pans.. Just be sure to avoid the metal wool and Brillo type stuff. Scotch Brite is a hard plastic mesh loaded with abrasive.Looks sort of like a hard wool pad. Test first on a piece of scrap for texture etc.
If not at the super market try a real hardware store. If not there you need to get it from an industrial supply house. It is tremendously popular in the machining and metal finishing industries.

Ed

[Underclocked]

The look-alike pads just don't do the job.  The true Scotch-Brite pads are the trick.  I had to order some online - drugstore.com I think.  Put them in with another small order.

[cliffs]

:lol: I get mine from the local Carquest store. Seems the body shops use it all the time.

[Gary T]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the suggestions on the Scotch Brite. Had to go to "the city" today, taking my 15 year old d'ter and 4 of her friends to see a movie, shopping, and out to eat.  :shock: Found the Scotch Brite at the Super Wal-Mart.  :grin: Our local Wal-Mart had a Scotch Brite product, but it was a sponge. What I bought today is a thin pad. Also bought some "Chore Boy," a pack of ribbons of stainless steel. Gary T.