Author Topic: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN  (Read 2137 times)

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Offline Wiking

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Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« on: October 22, 2009, 06:49:18 AM »
I have a .357 180gr GC LFN mold with a .35 nose. You have measured the throats on my Freedom Arms to be .3578 and the barrel to be .3575. I size the bullets .357. And I make sure to rum them deep into the sizer. The thing is I have problems chambering the rounds... and I sometimes have to really force them in. And when the gun is dirty I can forget about it. The bullets shoot really well.. when I get them loaded into the gun! On the little slip of paper that came with the mold you wrote that I would probably have to use a .357 sizer and have it polished a little. I must confess, until now I thought that you by mistake had written .357 instead of .358... (seing as you always size .001 over bore/throats)... but now I'm not so sure anymore!?! I just can't understand why a .357 bullet won't fit in a .3578 chamber? And If i were to shoot .3565 bullets in a .3575 barrel, won't that result in leading?? Or does the gas check take care of that?

It makes me nervous because if I can't chamber this bullet, how on earth am I goint to chamber a FN with a .40 nose  ???? I lie sleepless at night thinking about it, as this gun truly is my baby and I shoot it a lot.

Oh, and I use WWs metal and do things as per your instructions. And the bullets measure dead on .357 with my digital calipers.

Offline Veral

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 06:34:48 PM »
  I'm having the awake at night problem too right now, as I have a couple of before winter projects that I'm trying to get buttoned up befor the ol white haired man gets here!  Problem is, seems I never accomplish anything while laying in bed pondering my next moves.    I suspect the same thing with your bullet fitting problems.
   You thought I might have made a mistake!  I've done it a couple times, but if forced to admit it, might lay awake at night worrying about it. ;)
  The simplest fix may be to do your sizing within an hour after casting, IF YOU ARE WATER DROPPING.  The bullets will be far softer during this time, which will cause them to come out of the sizer quite a bit smaller.
  Digital calipers are real nice, and I use them a lot for quick rough measurements, but they get lost on half thousandths measurements, which I suspect is about how much you are having trouble with.
  If I mis guessed about you water dropping, post again.  I have a whole bag of tricks that will get you shooting, but have to have all the details to be sure which trick to use.

  When rounds chamber hard, there is a good chance of hangfires, as the resistence of bullet in throat can dampen the hammer fall just enough to prevent ignition.  Be sure they all drop in of their own weight, right up to the rim, if you are going into any important work with the gun.

  Please excuse my goofyness.  I made real good time on my 'project' today!
 
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 08:48:59 PM »
Yes I know the feeling. The more you worry the less you actually get done. I have about 5000 9mm and .38 special bullets that need sizing, and I keep posponing it... but at the rate I shoot them I'll be out of ammo before the next full moon.... which would really be bad!

Well I don't doubt your measurements are correct. I've just never been told to size under bore/throat size... so I was kind of surprised.

Yes I actually did water quench them BUT (oh dear, I'd hope this would never see the light of day) there was a female incident/occupant at the time, that prevented me from sizing the bullets within 24 hours. Now that I think of it I think 6 days passed before i got to sizing them  ::). At the time I thought she was worth it... but now I'm not so sure anymore haha.

I thought loss of hardness was the only affect of late sizing... guess I was wrong. Do you think it would work if I remove the checks and lube, heat treat them and size immediately??



Offline Veral

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 05:58:27 PM »
  Your female incident makes me smile. -- I never allow my wife or dog in the mold shop while I'm cutting molds.  After 40 years with this same woman, who I've found to be well worth it, by the way, if she comes in while I have to concentrate, I'll make a junk mold about half the time!

  Here's an easier fix for those bullets. -- Lay them on rags or several layers of paper towel, in a pan in the oven and heat till all the lube is soaked up by the rags.  Dump the hot bullets out on dry rags, rub them lightly, while still hot, to remove any traces of lube left, then heat them up to heat treat temp.  (The object so far is to prevent smoke from overheating the lube, but remove the lube with minimal effort.)

  Perhaps a very important factor right here is.  Make sure you don't have a female occupant in the house while doing the heat treating, as the lube residue will still smoke!  Size them after heat treat, keeping the same gas checks on.  They will be fairly well annealed, even at the low temp of heat treating, which often improves accuracy in itself, as they crimp down more tightly than out of the box checks, especially if you happen to have a harder than normal batch of checks.
Veral Smith

Offline stubshaft

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 10:03:08 PM »
I had a similar problem with the boolits in my FA83 .454.  The Lyman sizing die had a taper at the top and even though I thought I had pushed the boolit deep enough to size it the nose was slightly larger than the base.  I just used a Lee sizer and ran them throught after lubing in the Lyman.
If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong.

Offline Humbo

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 08:19:24 AM »
I never had any problems with getting the LFN's to chamber, but the heavy WFN's was another story. My mistake was to put too much trust in my expensive digital calipers and the sizing die I was using. I ordered my molds from Veral right at .452, which is the throat diameter of the gun, and sized the perfectly cast bullets. Measured with my calipers, they were right at .452 and everything was jolly good. But then, getting the finished loaded round to chamber was impossible, the nose was just too fat. In guns with as extremely tight tolerances as the FA revolvers, you would better get the dimensions right. I also had some sleepless nights beause of this, and I did not find out exactly what was wrong until I bought a micrometer. And there it was, bullets were actually .001 larger than what my calipers showed and what my sizing die was supposed to size to. I am not merely blaming the sizing die, but also what is called alloy springback. Now I run most of my cast bullets through Star sizers, and they come out right at the desired size and chamber beautifully.

Offline Wiking

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 11:24:56 AM »
So after 40 years of marriage she can still make you jiggle to the extend that you actually cut a bad mold  :o?? Wow.... there's a fairytale for all us poor love-hungering bastards  ;)

Alloy spring back, of course... how could I miss this (thanks Humbo)?? Veral I now see that you of course had taken this into consideration, along with the tight throats of a FA. I should have known... you sneaky son of a gun  ;D

Thanks for the advice on the heat-treating-re-sizing process. But I think it's too much hazzle for the 50 or so bullets I have left... especially since the new mold is on it's way almost. I'll just re-melt the old ones and start from scratch.

Since the nose on the new bullets will be fatter and longer, I'll try sizing them .356 and count on a little spring back and see where it gets me!

Thanks again.

Andreas

 

Offline Humbo

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 06:30:32 AM »
Wiking, I am glad to be of assistance to a fellow Scandinavian. Hopefully you will resolve your problem, please keep us posted on your progress. These FA revolvers can be picky about bullets and ammo, but when you find out what works, they will shoot better than everything else out there.

Offline Wiking

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 07:03:24 AM »
Humbo.

Ohh I didn't realize you too come from the cold and windy north.

Yes they are indeed master pieces, every single one of them. Before I started casting I used 180gr Hornady XTP at $0.40 a pop!!
I'm certain the gun and Veral's bullets will outshoot the Hornady's if I do my part... I'm the only weak link in this family  ::)

Offline Humbo

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 09:32:22 AM »
Wiking, I sure do. I live up by the cold fjords of Norway, and I struggle with many similar problems as gun owners down in Denmark. Prices, availability, hopeless gun laws, you name it.

Hornady XTP's are good boolits, and not too pricey compared to what you get. Accuracy is good, but they are easily outperformed by properly cast LFN's from LBT. And then there is the satisfaction of making your own boolits.  :)

Offline Veral

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 09:06:35 PM »
  I made a typo when I hit 40.  We've been together for 49 years come January 2010.  The jiggle, tremor and chill up the spine has become a bit closer to a trembling wobble as the years stack up!-- The reason she makes me scrap molds is because I concentrate so hard when cutting all but the easiest molds, so when her and the dog burst into the shop door 5 feet behind me, I'm so startled that I nearly collapse!  It irritates the daylights out of me until I turn around and see her laughing at me!  She was 17 when I married her, and she has never really grown up.  Still petite, and acts young and spunky.

  We've been through a lot of fire and deep water together and she sticks tighter with every trial.  That's priceless.
Veral Smith

Offline Humbo

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 12:20:32 AM »
Veral, when you say you have been together for 49 years, I know she must be a special woman. You told me earlier about some of the rough spots you went through in your past, and still your bonds grow stronger. You and mrs. Smith are truly privileged with what you have built for yourself, and I don't hear too many stories like yours any more.

Offline Wiking

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 05:44:29 AM »
Veral, that reminds me of a story.

A few years ago i subbed as a mailman where I live. One day on my route as I was about to put mail in the mailbox, out comes an old man, must have been at least 75. "Oh I'll take that young man... seeing as we are not home tomorrow because we are celebrating our anniversary". "Congrats, how many years have you been married?". "55 years" he replied, with proudness in his voice. "How is it being together with the same woman for 55 years, and what's the secret" I asked. His reply came instantly, "Lots of love and an equal amount of respect!"

Must have been what held you together through those rough patches with the feds and so on. Surely something to admire!!

Offline Veral

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 05:27:41 PM »
  Maybe I shouldn't take any credit for our long marriage, but if any is due, perhaps this story tells why.
  When I was about 15, dad and I went over to a neighbors to set up all night with 'John' who had had a stroke, and was being tended by his wife 24/7.  We went of coarse so she could get some sleep.  (This was a common practice back then, rather than imprisoning old folk in hospitals and homes. Surrounding neighbors took turns helping.  Only men could set up with John because he was dangerous, yet his wife tended him anyhow.)  Before retiring, Mrs, Gash, the only name I ever heard for her, chatted a while to unwind from the grind, as John was mean as a tiger most of the time.  She told us.  "We've never had much and cream was the only thing we ever sold from the farm for income.  But if we only had a pint of cream to sell and I wanted it to cook with, John would bring it in without a question."  My dad was stingy with my mother, and I liked Mrs. Gashes story, knowing this attitude which John had carried all his life was mainly what made their strong bond.  I adopted that attitude with my wife, giving her anything she wanted if we could scrape up the money. (Mrs Gash, though very healthy when the stroke happened, died about 2 years ahead of John.  She gave her life tending him.)
  I know that wouldn't work with most women, but Judy came from one of the poorest families in the county we lived in.  She carried herself royally and dressed like a queen with cast off clothing, which is all she had ever had till we married.  The family of 12 lived on the garden and poached venison, as her dad was too ill to work by age 50, and he married at 30!  She has never taken advantage of my freeness, but has given a lot more than I to our relationship.
  Want to hear about a peach of a mother in law?  She strongly influenced Judy to marry me, saying that I was a real nice guy, and she never changed that thinking till the day she died, at 80 years.  She spoke angry words at me only once in all those years, and that was the morning after Judy died in 1998, and was raised to life again when I begged God for her life.  Her mother 'KNEW' whenever one of her kids was in trouble, which is why she called me early the next morning and gave me a raking over for not telling her Judy was bad, and I dearly loved every word of it.  She didn't ask how Judy was when she called, she just started raking me over for not letting her know!  She was that sure that Judy had been in serious trouble!

  Without deserving it, I have been honored beyond discription by two wonderful ladies.
Veral Smith

Offline Wiking

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 06:52:33 AM »
Interesting stories. Surely makes one think.

Yes your mother in law sure does sound like a wonderful dame. Makes me think about one of my mother in laws. I was seing a girl some years ago... her mom loved me. In fact now that I think about it, almost all my mother in laws loved me  ;D. Anyway, she knew that I liked to drink REAL milk - not that low fat fitness milk that tastes like chalk water. When I slept over there was always a jug of my favorite milk waiting in the fridge when we got up in the morning  :). And she always cooked my favorite dishes... she too was a real peach.

Offline david.bergen

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »
I also had some trouble with the wfn in my FA83.
After sizing I tried the bullets in the throats off the cilinder. They are a slip fit (as recommended ) and so the should fit fine.
But I got bullets that were hard to chamber. You really had to push on them to seat them.
Some FA revolvers have a very abrupt corner from chamber size to throat size and when you have a bullet that isn't seated perfectly straight in the case it will grap the corner on one side and a ridge is formed that is causing the hard seating.(you are literally scraping lead away)
I ordered a Hornady seating die with the sliding bullet seater and the result are better when I am very carefull when seating the bullets.
A friend off mine has the Redding competition seater and is very pleased with it.( I have no excperience with it)
Only the FA guns are giving you signals when the ammo isn't perfectly straight never had the same problem with the Ruger and that ammo was more crooked . After that incident I have checked all my ammo and worked hard to elliminate the indicated runout.
An RCBS casemaster is very usefull for diagnosing and correcting the situation
David

Offline Veral

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Re: Difficulty chambering 180gr LFN
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2010, 10:57:37 PM »
  FA revolvers also have very tight chambers, which doesn't make much allowance for cocked bullets.  Another standard item for FA revolvers is bores that are larger than cylinder throats.  Probably the simplest fix for most owners is to polish the cylinder throats out a bit, which will radius the sharp shoulder you are speaking of and allow a bit more freedom as to how bullets are seated.  If that shoulder is gouging your loaded ammo it is also shaving lead when the bullets are fired, but you can't see it because the powder gasses sweep it out.  A bit of polishing will fix both problems.
Veral Smith