Author Topic: Olympics SA (Read 1109 times)

noyb72 · « **on:** February 27, 2010, 11:12:49 AM »

Hello gentlemen

I am fontunate to have a wife who is a South African native, and I plan on taking her home in 14, her to watch gymnastics, me to hunt the East Cape (where shes from.)

I have decided (this week, at least,) to take a handi and 4 barrels. A 12 guage for wingshooting (easy enough,) and a heavy, medium and light.

I am leaning toward the 45-120 as the heavy, since you all have been so successful w/it. I am not sure if I will be able to swing the trophy fees to even need it but one can dream.

I would LOVE a 8mm-06AI for the medium, but getting their from any handy listing seems more bother than its worth. So the medium will probably be a Whelen AI. Maybe one of the wildcats with the shoulder moved forward just to be different. I have seen a 45-70 necked down to .308, that essentially becomes a 30-06. I'm wondering what the 45-120 necked down to .35 and loaded to SB2 pressures would do? Close enough to .338 Win Mag, I'm sure.

I don't see any reference to 6mm Rem on this board, but would love to take it as the light gun. Is the 65k to high a pressure or is it just lack of interest? If it is a suitable round, I am pretty sure it will go.

I haven't set anything in stone, and am looking for ideas. I have hunted Africa before, just antelope with relatives. The first gun I ever shot was dads pardner SB1 20 gauge. Still got it and it may come along for the sake of nostalgia. Just seems right to take a handy on my first Safari.

Thanks
Ron

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2010, 12:46:33 PM »

There was a two part magazine article a few years ago in Rifle magazine that was written by Brian Pearce where he took a Marlin .45-70 loaded with Garrett ammo to Africa. On his hunt he shot through one cape Buff and hit the one behind it killing them both. I doubt you'd need to go to the .45-120 to get it done but it's up to you.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2010, 12:57:32 PM »

That was probably Vince Lupo, that story is on the Garrett site.

Tim

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2010, 01:17:14 PM »

Guys, a question. Do I understand correctly that .45-90, .45-100 is optimum and .45-120 equals diminishing returns?

Thanks,

Pete

noyb72 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2010, 01:35:56 PM »

I read that article a few years ago. The thing is, I like different. I understand the whole "your ammo may end up in London so you need to be able to buy some more" argument, but I say hogwash. Any trip to Africa is special and I want it to be as great as possible. If my ammo goes to the wrong continent, then Yahweh didn't want me to hunt that trip.

As far as "optimum capacity," from an engineering standpoint, I agree. But really, the more powder you can burn the faster you can go. If you use an extra $.15 of powder to get an extra 100fps when you could use $.05 worth in a smaller case for a hunt that will cost, in the end, several thousands of dollars, so what. It's worth it to me to be doing what I want and be doing it my way.

Thanks
Ron

briannmilewis · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2010, 02:12:50 PM »

I know you do not want to hear about using only fctory ammo form factors...but...I am not you, and I will never go on an African hunt costing thousands, but unless I was very wealthy and could afford to p..s away $10k for no good reason at all, like my baggage went to South America rather than South Africa, to me, the risk would be too high to expect to hunt and bag your limit using a wildcat cartridge. I think the exposure is huge compared to all the other things that can go wrong on a big time hunt. I think by using wildcats on a high dollar hunt, you are inviting disaster and disappointment into your life. The only way I would do it is if I had a reloading setup close at hand to manufacture what you need that went missing. Otherwise it will be the guide's choice. FWIW

noyb72 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2010, 02:18:19 PM »

I really was hoping we could talk about cartridges and not logistics, but an advantage I have is a wife's friend who will either be less than 50 miles away or hunting with me who has all the guns and ammo I could possibly need if something stupid happens and I decide to still hunt. I do things over their more like a resident because I have family and friends their. I am doing an actual Safari with a real outfit for the experience.

I also reload almost everything I shoot, and have for as long as I've been shooting. Once cases are formed, their is absolutly no difference shooting a SGLSC or a 7mm-08 other than you can buy one at WallMart. A Handi has no brain to know that it is not a factory cartridge.

Ron

blind ear · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2010, 02:21:14 PM »

edited out. eddie

briannmilewis · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2010, 06:51:46 PM »

Quote from: noyb72 on February 27, 2010, 02:18:19 PM

I really was hoping we could talk about cartridges and not logistics, but an advantage I have is a wife's friend who will either be less than 50 miles away or hunting with me who has all the guns and ammo I could possibly need if something stupid happens and I decide to still hunt. I do things over their more like a resident because I have family and friends their. I am doing an actual Safari with a real outfit for the experience.

I also reload almost everything I shoot, and have for as long as I've been shooting. Once cases are formed, their is absolutly no difference shooting a SGLSC or a 7mm-08 other than you can buy one at WallMart. A Handi has no brain to know that it is not a factory cartridge.

Ron

That sounds more encouraging.

wreckhog · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2010, 01:01:53 AM »

If you want 65k pressure, it is time for another gun.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:04:21 AM »

Wreck is right, 65kpsi and large case heads is not a recipe for an H&R wildcat, that's why H&R doesn't offer any magnum rifle chamberings.

Tim

wreckhog · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2010, 07:03:43 AM »

I can barely find Africa on a globe, but a 7x57 (or possibly 7x64) Handi would be a neat retro metric caliber for anything but dangerous game. I don't see why you even want a light gun, assuming that you may see medium-large targets of opportunity. Plus once you are done scoping the things and verifying that your sights are on after barrel changes, what is the fun and $ savings? Are you somehow restricted in terms of the # of guns you can bring, is that why you would bring just one?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2010, 07:25:06 AM »

Nothing wrong with a Handi in Africa!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148194.msg1098612687.html#msg1098612687

noyb72 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:55:52 AM »

I'm not restricted to anything, I just love the Handi-rifle concept. I know 65k is high, but a .308 is 62k, and a 6mm Remington is not a large ase head, its a .257 Roberts necked up and loaded to modern pressures. I am not trying to save money by using the Handi. I am doing it because of it's flexibility and superior reliability and accuracy. I also love single shot's and thing the increased chalenge will make this all the better time.

Their are alot of small antelope in Africa. In fact, unless you are a magazine writer, that is what is usually taken. I have a friend who lives in Alaska and will hapily show you the pictures of the prarie dogs and moose he takes every year with his 6mm. The last time I went to Cape Town a Russian on my flight had pictures of warthog up to eland (which means he was roling in it,) that he took with a 25-06AI.

Thanks
Ron

dieselman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:57:35 AM »

I would like a light gun, there is small predators there just like here. I have been to Africa (with USMC) and do not care for the big game hunts for the price like others have said BUT, on one of the predator shows a few weeks ago they were hunting, small predators. Now that is something I would like to do and for that i can see needing a light flat shooting gun for.. something like a 22-250 or 243 would fit the bill I think.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:16:22 AM »

Quote from: noyb72 on February 28, 2010, 08:55:52 AM

I'm not restricted to anything, I just love the Handi-rifle concept. I know 65k is high, but a .308 is 62k, and a 6mm Remington is not a large ase head, its a .257 Roberts necked up and loaded to modern pressures. I am not trying to save money by using the Handi. I am doing it because of it's flexibility and superior reliability and accuracy. I also love single shot's and thing the increased chalenge will make this all the better time.

Ron,

Pressure isn't the only factor in determining suitability for the SB2 frame, case head size, or more specifically, internal case head area and pressure need to be considered to calculate breech thrust(bolt thrust). The 270 Win is factory chambered in the Handi and has a SAAMI MAP of 65kpsi, same as many of the belted magnums, but they all have much larger case heads. As for the 6mm Rem, I have a 6mmAI Rem Ultra Varmint that shoots very well, it's a rechambered 243 Ultra.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:54:41 AM »

Ron,
I think you have a great idea!. Go forth on your project.A 45-120 will drop anything you properly place you shot on. as far as a medium rifle goes the 8mm sounds very interesting, but then so does a 30-06 with heavy bullets in my humble opinion. A 6mm Rem in either regular or Ackley configuration should also be a good choice. Good Luck on your trip and pleases Post Pics

noyb72 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2010, 10:18:51 AM »

Mind if i take your barrel to Africa?

I'm glad it's been done, that means I'm not in uncharted waters. I'll get a .243 barrel here in the next couple of months to get started.

Ron

243wright · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2010, 01:21:31 PM »

I dont think you can rechamber a 243 handy to 6mm rem. The 6mm rem. has a lot more body taper. The ackley improved version would be fine but I think you would have problems witha regular 6mm rem. I could be wrong but its something to check into. Good luck!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 06, 2010, 03:42:11 AM »

30-30 and 405 Win. ?

Mad Dog · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2010, 04:21:18 AM »

Would like to interject a couple of thoughts here. My son took a NEF handirifle, .30-06, for our plains game hunt, in RSA, in the summer of 2008. Tim posted the link above. Absolutely no issues with the handi for plains game, anywhere in RSA.

That being said, I think you have 2 issues facing you in your plans for 3 rufles/1shotgun for RSA. First, the airlines have specific weight allowances for ammo, on the plane. Of course you could put some of it in your wife's luggage. but 5.5 kg[I think] is the maximum weight of ammo you can take per person. Secondly, I think you are only allowed 3 guns per person for import. Again, doable, if you list some under your wife. Don't know how that works with 1 receiver and 4 barrels. In any case, I'd buy your shotgun ammo over there, and only take rifle ammo with you. You do understand that you will have to do a customs form 4457 on each barrel to get them back in the country, coming home. I hunted in Limpopo, with my son, on our hunt in 2008, but have read a lot about the eastern cape. Why not take a .30-06 with different weight bullets, rather than 3 different rifle barrels, with 3 different types of ammo. The .30-06 with loads from 110 gr to 220 gr. will kill every head of plains game from steinbok up to cape eland, very efficiently. The .45-120 is a great idea, but not neccessary, and the cartridges weigh more[airlines again]. I took a .45-70, when I went, and it flattened everything I shot with it.

All I can say is I like youe style, but I would check the logistics out to keep the trip fun, and not a monumental PITA. JMHO.

Mad Dog

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2010, 04:34:06 AM »

If it can still be done ship the ammo and extra barrels to some family over there well ahead of time. Then ship them back home the same way .A friend of mine (George Hoffann) did that for his hunting concession in Zimbabwe.He always shipped his ammo over there because of the poor quality of buckshot available. His idea that a buckshot load that did not go bang could be very dangerous to your health if a wounded leopard or lion was charging at you .Check into the current laws it might be an option.
Good luck & Happy trails

Mad Dog · « **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2010, 05:37:30 AM »

Not sure, but I don't think you can do that anymore, due to rsident gun licensing laws in RSA.

Mad Dog

noyb72 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2010, 07:40:44 AM »

Mad Dog

Thanks for your input, I have considered everything you have said. I am not certain about the barrels counting or not. I have plenty of family that would receive rifles and ammunition through the mail. It is a logistic concern but I have several years yet to sort it out. I would be flying with at least 4, and possibly more, so the weight issue should be able to be worked out.

Why not just a 30-06? I guess a better question is why not not just a 30-06? (I don't know if my English teacher would accept that one.) I'm doing this for the fun of it, and would like to make it as enjoyable and special as possible. I have a worked over Savage 110 from my Grandfather in 30-06 and I have good shooting loads for all the animals I'd likely go after, but I just want something with more variety.

If I could find the outfitter and could put enough money away, and it was 50 years ago, my dream, of course, is to have a real wall tent Safari. I understand that labor prices aren't what they were back then and that just isn't feasible in today's market, but I'm gonna get as close as I can get.

Thanks again

Ron

Mad Dog · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2010, 08:12:10 AM »

Ron, just out of curiousity, what animals do you want to hunt[assuming you can afford them]. Kudu, gemsbok,eland, blue/black wildebeast, red hartebeast? Just curious what your wish list is. Sometimes you can put a pretty good pkg. together, and pay it out over time.

Here is who we hunted with, in 2008. All their pkgs. are extremely competitive. But alas no tent camp.

www.cruisersafaris.com/

Mad Dog

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2010, 08:32:57 AM »

Ron:

I envy you being able to plan a hunt like this..it has always been a dream of mine to go on safari and hunt the big 5..

That said I understand you wanting some variety for your rifles and choosing a single shot in any caliber for this adventure is a bold step to me. Good thing your planning well ahead of your going

My choice would be a little different than yours and others for caliber selection. While the 45 calibers are proven winners,I wouldn't be using just a single shot to take on any dangerous game with,this is of-course my own personal opinion,but you are free to agree or not.A good Marlin lever gun in 45-70 would be my first choice for them.Loaded with 5 Buffalo Bore or Garrets heavy hitters would sooth my nerves quite a bit... My choices if you are looking for variety pack of Handi's would be a combination of factory offerings and 1 good semi-wild cat to get close to your initial choice..utilizing the factory barrels.For me I would choose to have a 26" 338-06 A-Square built from a 25-06 barrel. With the right combination of bullets and powders available it can do everything your 8mm AI will do and you can get factory ammo for it. I owned one for a couple years as others here still do and it is plenty capable of exceeding your expectations. I achieved velocities far in excess of published loads and there are many bullets available to satisfy your needs be it light ones or heavy ones. If this isn't a likely candidate,then look at a 280 Remington.With it's 26" barrel and quality factory or hand loads you will be very surprised at what it can do. If you want to go whole hog as we say,then looking into having a high grade 3 groove Lilja or a 5c rifled Broughton stubbed out for them.These types of barrels are the best on the market and offer you more choices for calibers than any of the factory barrels .

A nice 28" vent ribbed shotgun barrel is a must for those feathered hunting opportunities and should be taken along or at your disposal over there..

Good Luck

Mac

noyb72 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:36:48 PM »

I'm in the process of putting together a dedicated elk rifle in 338-06 A-Square on a Savage action. I love the cartridge and believe it will do anything the eight will do, I am just a hard core fan of 8mm. If I shoot bullets of equal weight in the two, then the eight will have better sectional density and probably ballistic coefficient. I just don't know if I want to go through all the hassle of working with stub barrels. I have access to everything I need to increase the size of a chamber to a bigger cartridge, but I'm not enough of a machinist to say I can rebarrel a handi.

I have a very short list of what I want, and it will grow rapidly as I think about it. Eland and greater Kudu are amazing animals, but my favorite of the biggies is the oryx. If I had a 50k square foot mansion the first thing anyone would see when they entered the front door would be a classic Tommy-Cheetah display (has anyone looked at taxidermy fees lately, good grief!) But I'm not so I won't. I'm not shooting for meat obviously but I may start out with a "springy," as a daughter of a friend calls them in order to get some bil-tong made up (if you haven't ate it you haven't lived!) I would love a Buffalo and Rhino, but it may be just to much money. I am not planning to do this on the cheap, but alas, I am not made of money either.

Mad Dog, I've seen your pictures and have looked at your outfitters website. It looks like a truly wonderful time and the daily rates are very tempting, but I think I'll stay with the East Cape.

Ron

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2010, 03:41:02 AM »

I surely admire your style, too. Many of us are into the esthetic of our 'sport' rather than just the machinery (but to each his own). It adds quite the romance to the occassion by having the 'right' rifle to match your vision.
I wonder if having your premium rifle with various loads, for light to heavy game, might be an option? One good gun to know and it will always be with you.