35 Whelen range report kinda

[Dinny]

I loaded 25 cases with two different bullets and 2 different powders. Case prep was all the same for the new RP brass.  Like always, with new brass, I uniformed the primer pockets with my cordless drill and nifty tool from Sinclair as a part of the entire case prep process. (I'll come back to this point later)

I started with the 180gr Hornady SSPB load and couldn't get any of them to fire, until the last one of the five.  No grouping, obviously.

Then I went to the next load with a 200 gr Hornady Spitzer. Every other one fired for the first 15 of them. Intermittent groups of 2 or 3 shots. Groups around 1" at 50yds.

Lastly I tried the last five and they all fired.  I did get a nice group where they were basically firing into the same cloverleaf at 50 yds.

When I came back home from the range/field, I looked over all my brass and compared a few things. One observation I made was that with everything that fired, the primers were flush with the case head.  The brass that remained unfired had about a .003"-.004" gap between the top of the primer and the case head.

Is this enough of a gap to cause my FTF issues? Should I be looking at some other reason for this? Any idea why my tool would be cutting some primer pockets deeper than others?


Thanks, Dinny 

[cwlongshot]

How do you seat your primers? If your crushing them you will have FTF.

I'm not familiar with this tool. I mean I know what it is and what it does. I don't know if its inherit design would allow for this problem...

CW

[quickdtoo]

I haven't used the Sinclair tool, but the Lyman works well,  but I'm not familiar with their tool, is it adjustable? The Lyman isn't, it works real well in my RCBS case prep center. I suppose you could have some bad primers too if you're not crushing them as CW mentioned, maybe measure some and see if some are shorter than others? In any event, with all the 35 Whelen problems, I'd check firing pin protrusion and make it on the deep side to, closer to .060" than .040" depending on where it is now, then it won't matter if the primers are recessed slightly if that is the issue. 

Tim

[Tractorsaw1]

Thats interesting.  I felt like i had to put most brass back in the press and give it another lug to get them flush.  New brass, no primer pocket prep?  Can't try anything until the rifle comes back from being loaned out, i no longer loan out firearms!!!!!!!!!

[Dinny]

How do you seat your primers? If your crushing them you will have FTF.
I'm not familiar with this tool. I mean I know what it is and what it does. I don't know if its inherit design would allow for this problem...
CW

I use a RCBS hand priming tool. Never had any problems with primers before. The uniformer has a rim that bottoms-out on the case head.

I haven't used the Sinclair tool, but the Lyman works well,  but I'm not familiar with their tool, is it adjustable? The Lyman isn't, it works real well in my RCBS case prep center. I suppose you could have some bad primers too if you're not crushing them as CW mentioned, maybe measure some and see if some are shorter than others? In any event, with all the 35 Whelen problems, I'd check firing pin protrusion and make it on the deep side to, closer to .060" than .040" depending on where it is now, then it won't matter if the primers are recessed slightly if that is the issue.  
Tim

No, it's not adjustable. This receiver has never given me any FTF issues with it's other barrels. I will read the FAQs for pin protrusion mods, can't hurt to make it a little deeper, right?

Thanks, Dinny

[wreckhog]

Given that it is new brass, I would certainly expect the primers to back out (flush with the case head?) even if they were recessed before firing. Ie, may not mean much unless you examine the same cases before firing. I posted something on Whelens in break open single shots being problematic for Handis, CVA and Encores in this most recent deer season. Might not be your issue. Who knows..... In any case, segregate that "good" brass. Betcha it keeps working if you neck size it. Did ya retry the "bad" rounds after the gun started working?


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=197769.0

[Airsporter]

Any chance your are reaming primer pockets too deep?

[quickdtoo]

No, it's not adjustable. This receiver has never given me any FTF issues with it's other barrels. I will read the FAQs for pin protrusion mods, can't hurt to make it a little deeper, right?

Thanks, Dinny

If you're using multiple barrels on the same frame, one barrel may be problematic even if the others aren't, just depends on head space on that particular barrel. I'd be cautious increasing pin protrusion to the maximum in that case, on another barrel is may cause primer problems.

Tim

[JerryKo]

I agree with wreckhog.  The primers will definitely be flush because of the pressure pushing the case back into the primer and breech face.   Hornady's reloading handbook explains this.  

The FTF loads may have been seated too deeply. Or on your next loads only size the neck and I bet you will eliminate the FTF's, especially if you are not using Remington's primers.

Good luck

Jerry

[Dinny]

I agree with wreckhog.  The primers will definitely be flush because of the pressure pushing the case back into the primer and breech face.   Hornady's reloading handbook explains this.  
The FTF loads may have been seated too deeply. Or on your next loads only size the neck and I bet you will eliminate the FTF's, especially if you are not using Remington's primers.
Good luck
Jerry

I did separate the "good" brass from the rest.  I did retry all the other non-firers, they still didn't want to go off.

I am using CCI BR-2 primers, it's all Cabelas had yesterday. I thought they fit fine, but maybe they're a little to short. 

Any chance your are reaming primer pockets too deep?

I don't know how I could be, the tool bottoms-out on the case head.

Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

There definitely can be a difference in primer cup height.

Tim

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

[Tom Threetoes]

I'm just wondering did you look at each primer after you seated them, to check the depth?

[jather]

what about primer cup hard/softness. don't recall which primers harder/softer than others. if primers marginally hard compared to your gun's firing pin strike, the few thou's extra depth could make the difference. has this gun fired loads with cci before or a different brand-maybe softer cup? different primers or stronger pin strike may be needed. jather..

[Dinny]

I'm just wondering did you look at each primer after you seated them, to check the depth?

No I did not check, never had a reason to from past experiences. I can load some now using the same techniques to see.  One slight difference to note. I usually use CCI 200 primers, this time Cabelas didn't have any so I used the BR-2s.  Maybe I could track down some 200s for a comparison. That's also what I used for a initial proof load first after fitting the barrel a few months back. All 5 went bang that time.

Thanks, Dinny

[44 Man]

Someone jump in here with .35 Whelen experience, but seems to me there was trouble with shoulders on ammo allowing it to drop too deep into the chamber and causing misfires.  New brass would definately be undersize being able to chamber in all chambers out there.  How about the possibility that the shoulder is just to far back to reliably fire and it has little to do with the primers.  As said, I'll bet the cases that fired will have no further trouble (as long as you neck size them and size the body only minimally) reguardless of primers because they have blown the shoulders just a little forward to fit this chamber.  I think it's a question of minimum size brass and a larger chamber more than a true primer problem.  Three or four thousands should not make a difference with a firing pin with 'in spec' protrustion.  44 Man

[Tractorsaw1]

Any luck Dinny finding the problem?  I am getting ready to start a load with the barnes tripple shock 225 grain.  Had some misfires with a factory box of remington 200 grain.  put one of my new brass primed with cci & it fired the primer?  Did pickup a wolf spring, in case it persists. 

[Dinny]

Any luck Dinny finding the problem?  I am getting ready to start a load with the barnes tripple shock 225 grain.  Had some misfires with a factory box of remington 200 grain.  put one of my new brass primed with cci & it fired the primer?  Did pickup a wolf spring, in case it persists. 

Well, kinda. The Whelen barrel was fitted to a receiver using the thickest piece of brass shim stock I had, .008" I don't think it was enough, it still was a little loose for my liking.  I bought another Handi rifle this weekend and the receiver fits my Whelen better than the other.

So that and a different brand of LR primers will leave me with months worth of work, being that I only get a few hours per week anymore.

Thanks, Dinny

[Dinny]

Just as another follow-up...I shot the loads that would not fire last time. 8 of 9 fired with new receiver. The last one went off later when I tried it again.  8 of 9 is better, but I still need to keep working on it. More to follow when I get more time to shoot.

Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

That's encouraging. 

Tim

[guns-o-fun]

Sounds like you are on the right track - some looseness in the fit plus the recommended seating of just a bit below the case head and I can see how you could get some misfires.  I am in the process of taking "excess" barrel breach face off a couple of mine - hopefully in pursuit of accuracy - but I have had a misfire or two that might have something to do with this....maybe.

[Dinny]

That's encouraging. 
Tim

I was smiling widely until I got that one FTF.  I thought for sure I was good to go......  We'll see what happens next time.

Thanks, Dinny