Author Topic: Forming 30-30 AI brass  (Read 1108 times)

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Offline Dezynco

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Forming 30-30 AI brass
« on: March 02, 2010, 07:47:19 AM »
How do you folks form 30-30 Ackley Improved brass?  I was thinking I would load some squib loads for the fire forming. Is this a good idea and the best way to go about the task?

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 08:37:59 AM »
I use the bottom of the load for whatever weight bullet I'm using. It's worked so far for my .219 and my 6mmAI. gypsyman
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Offline Reed1911

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 09:11:59 AM »
Yup, Grab some 150g Lead bullets, load a mild load and head to the range. You'll have a pleasant shoot, get some practice and for brass all in one shot (pun intended).
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Offline Dezynco

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 10:05:22 AM »
That's what I thought.  I've got a boatload of 90 grain lead bullets that do not shoot well in any of my other 30 calibers.  Thought I'd put about 3 grains of Bullseye and let'er fly!

Offline Steve P

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 10:17:36 AM »
Depends are what you are shooting them in.  Some guns that are true Ackley dimensions will fireform factory or similar to factory loads.  Some guns that are re-chambered 30-30 like the TC Contender, H&R etc where the barrel cannot be set back, has a little bit longer chamber to fill and you have to make sure your mild loads have a long bullet that seats out far enough to engage the rifling.  If your 90 grain bullet does not engage the rifling, you may get the brass to expand, but it may not fully form to your chamber.

The RCBS 165Sil cast bullet is a good bullet for fireforming brass.  Even though it is a bore rider design, it is long enough to ensure pressure build up and good brass formation.  About 8.0 grains of Unique and similar 7mm 145 Sil is what I use to fireform my 7x30W brass.  RCBS 165 Sil and 12.0 grains of Unique form my 30-06 AI brass in my M98.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Dezynco

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 02:30:17 PM »
Ok, I have some Lee 150grain lead bullets that do not shoot well in anything that I own.  I loaded them with 8 grains of AL-5 (an old can of powder that is similar to Unique - don't worry I checked it out to be OK). Pops the cases out very nicely.  I then loaded some 175 grain Sierra Match Kings with BLC-2.  Oh me garsh!  I put 3 shots through the same little hole at 25 yards while sighting in!  Un-real!

I think my new barrels a keeper!

Offline Handgun Hunter

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 04:11:51 PM »
Hey Steve, Dezynco,

     I must be missing something guys. I thought the 30/30 Win. headspaced on the rim, and all you did was fire factory or 30/30 Win handloads in a 30/30 AI chamber and out pops your AI brass? I have heard about AI chambers having a kind of a "crush" fit for factory ammo at the neck/shoulder junction, but I believe this applies to cartrages that headspace on the shoulder, the 30/30 headspaces on the rim.

     I have also heard of seating a bullet hard against the rifleing as well to create a false headspace, but I thought this was done to form brass for a "pushed shoulder" designed type of wildcat, such as the Gibs and some of the SSK Industry( J D Jones) wildcats? I may be wrong.

                                                    Tim.
Tim. " The fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living "

Offline HL

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 02:07:34 AM »
Dezynco,

90gr bullets will probably be a little light for fireforming. It's best to use the heaviest bullet you can, and seat the bullet to just touch the lands. Just what I've found.

Offline shot1

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 02:28:01 AM »
I am using some 147 gr FMJ bullets pulled fmj from military ammo and the starting load for a 30-30 Win with IMR 4320. I am using the 4320 because I have had it for a long time and I use it in nothing else that I load. I have not had time or the weather to go to the range to do all my fire forming but I did shoot a couple rounds into the ground in the back yard just to see if the load did OK and worked. It did fine.

Offline Catfish

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 02:41:32 AM »
Do not load lite. I tried that years ago and cases would not form correctly. Load normal loads and take them shooting or hunting. I like to form at least 200 rounds at a time so I work up an accurate load for fire forming and take them groundhog hunting. With a good barrel 1/2 moa loads with fire form ammo is possible.

Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 04:23:04 AM »
I just shoot regular 30-30 reloads with jacketed or cast bullets. They shoot just fine in my T/C Bullberry barrel.
After I shoot up 50 or so I size the fireformed rounds to that barrel. Then your all set to go.

Note: My grandson helped me out this year cause he used my 30-30AI barrel for deer hunting. I had 50 rds of 150gr. 30-30 bullets to shoot up in practice and hunting. They shoot very accurate with hardly any recoil. Only thing you have to do is change the scope setting from 30-30 to 30-30AI loads.

Offline Dezynco

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 01:29:39 PM »
After the brass if fire formed, is there an "across the board" rule for loading the 30-30AI concerning powder charges?  Can I just  take data from a 30-30 and increase it by a certain percent, like 5% or so?

For example, if I'm looking at 25 grains of PowderX in a 30-30, can I just load 26.3 grains of PowderX in the AI and watch for pressure signs?

Offline shot1

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 04:16:04 PM »
You can go to Specialty Pistols web site and do a search and find some load data for the 30-30AI. IMR 4198 seems to be THE powder for 110 through 135 gr bullets and IMR 3031 seems to be THE powder for 150 gr bullets. Listed Max for 125 gr bullets and IMR 4198 is 34.0 grs. 130 to 135 gr bullets Max is 33.0 IMR 4198.
For 150 gr bullets and IMR 3031 36.0 grs is listed Max.

Offline Steve P

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 06:02:25 PM »
Forming the brass depends on the gun.  If you used the AI reamer in a factory .30-30 barrel without setting the barrel back, you are lengthening the chamber by some number of .001". (I don't know the exact measurement off the top of my head.)  My -06 had to have the barrel set back almost one full turn to do the proper headspace for the AI improvement.  I can fire factory ammo and the -06 and it is headspaced properly, as all true AI chamberings do. 

You can load normal .30-30 loads for the lengthened chamber and if using a squaty 150 grain bullet you might get your brass blown out to some degree, but in my experience it will have a rounded shoulder and will be sooty. 

30-30 headspaces on the rim, but you have to consider experience and logic over what someone writes in a book.  Not everyone who writes in those books are experts.  I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 firearms in "wildcat" calibers that require me to make brass.  I also have several antique guns where brass is $2-3 each to buy or I can make it from -06, 308 or other parent brass for next to nothing.  After making many 1000 brass I am confident in what has worked for me and what hasn't.  I appreciate the opportunity to share my knowledge with others.  (THANKS,GB!)

I could blow smoke up your a......nose or I can give you good information.  My 7x30 waters, 30 Bower Alaskan, 7mm Bower, 7mm Super Mag, 6.5US and 7US all use rimmed brass.  Between these 6 calibers (7 guns total) I have over 3000 rounds of ammo and/or fireformed brass.  All have been fireformed with either false shoulders and/or cast bullets loaded to touch the rifling.  I have lost very few brass in the process and once fireformed, my brass is ready to trim to length and ready to shoot for group or in competition.  I have 7x30 W, 7SM, 6.5US and 7US in pistols that I shoot in silhouette competition out to 200 meters.  I have shot the 7US out to 500 meters and hunted with the 7x30 waters.  The two Bower barrels were made by Don Bower and both have been shot in friendly 1000 yard competition, however not by me.  (I have no place to shoot that far.).

The only real way to learn to form wildcat brass is to do it yourself.  You can read from books, look at internet sights, or ask questions in chat rooms like Gray Beard Outdoors.   In the end, the only way to get good brass for your gun is to make it yourself or have someone else make it for you.  The only way for me to give a definitive answer on how to make AI brass for Dezynco's gun would be by getting more info on the gun, the reamer, who did the reaming,  and what reloading dies were purchased to use.  Without this additional information, my best suggestion is still to use a mild load of Unique and the RCBS 165 Silhouette cast bullet seated out to touch the rifling to get a good and complete fireform on the brass.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Steve P

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 06:11:55 PM »
After the brass if fire formed, is there an "across the board" rule for loading the 30-30AI concerning powder charges?  Can I just  take data from a 30-30 and increase it by a certain percent, like 5% or so?

For example, if I'm looking at 25 grains of PowderX in a 30-30, can I just load 26.3 grains of PowderX in the AI and watch for pressure signs?

There is LOTS of reloading information available on the internet and in books.  Do a google search and you will find lots.  For small cases like the 30-30 I do not go up more than .5 grain at a time.  So if your Powder X has a max load of 25 grains for the .30-30, I may start at 24.0 and then go up in .5 grain increments from there.  I have had many guns where I have had 10 or more increases in powder at .5 grain intervals before I found the "sweet spot" that my gun liked.  

Believe it or not, guns can be like cars, speed can kill.

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Handgun Hunter

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Re: Forming 30-30 AI brass
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 09:59:24 AM »
Thanks for the info Steve.

                               Tim.
Tim. " The fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living "