Author Topic: little factory ammo info  (Read 661 times)

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Offline Lloyd Smale

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little factory ammo info
« on: March 10, 2010, 01:21:48 PM »
Just picked up a win featherweight in 280rem and need some brass. My buddys gunshop had 8 boxes of the old 165 grain rem load. Hes had them forever and offered them to me for 10 bucks a box. Really didnt need a bullet that heavy and bought them mostly for brass so i pulled the bullets and stuck them on the shelf for later. It was loaded with what was no doubt 4831 given the velocity and charge weight. Just for grins i started weighting the charges and they varied from 54.0 to 55.1 and there was no real half way point they were all over the place. I would have never guessed factory ammo would have powder charges that varied so much. No doubt there just dumping powder in them.
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Offline necchi

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 01:30:21 PM »
A full grain +.. :o, that's huge!
 No wonder I started loading my own ;D

Good thing ya didn't decide to shoot'm just to get your scope close,  might have worn out the adjustment screws!
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Offline wncchester

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 01:44:07 PM »
"I would have never guessed factory ammo would have powder charges that varied so much. No doubt there just dumping powder in them."

Yes, that's exactly what they do.  No way to hand weigh several thousands of rounds an hour on automated machines.  

And, since factory stuff frequently does quite well, it sorta shows we really need not be so anal about most of what we load, not for shooting inside 300 yards anyway.  A full grain in a case that size really isn't a lot of spread.
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Offline necchi

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 01:53:33 PM »
 A full grain in a case that size really isn't a lot of spread.

What? ???
 Again,,I'm glad I'm loading my own.

They have always said to buy the same lot#,, I wonder how many different lot's where in those 10 boxes?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 05:51:14 PM »
Within same box or lot # or different boxes and lot #?

Factory ammo is NOT loaded with cannister powders we can buy. They check each new lot of powder and adjust the amount they load based on the specs they are looking for. So if different lots it's not at all out of place to see that much difference. If same box and lot # then I'd be surprised but as much Remington Factory ammo as I've shot I'd not be concerned about it not shooting well.


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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 01:45:48 AM »
this was all the same lot. Im sure its close to 20 years old so i doubt if rem was using any fancy powder in it. What i did was run a couple over the chrono and looked in a couple reloading manuals to see what it related to and the only thing close was 4831. Im sure thats still in the era where the ammo companys were using lots of left over surplus powder and thats where 4831 came from.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 02:03:24 AM »
Im sure its close to 20 years old .. thats still in the era

Geeeze Lloyd!  :o  20 years ago was like... YESTERDAY!    :-\  That was 1990 for cryin out loud!  another era indeed... I must be downright prehistoric according to that line of thought!   ::)

As I remember, the major ammunition manufacturing companies have been using the process Bill discribed since long before 1990.   :-\  Of course the phrase "As I remember" is critical here...  :-[
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 05:44:52 AM »
Remember that gun writer from our youth, his name was something like Jack O'Conner?  This was back in the last century and he wrote about there being two or three grain differences in factory 270 ammunition.  The accuracy issue is what drove a lot of shooters into reloading in the early years.
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Offline Catfish

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 02:11:52 PM »
Your velocity will vary at a rate of 1/2 of the percentage change in powder charge. 1 gr. on a 50 gr. charge would be 2 % you your velocity change would be 1 % so that would cause a varation of 30 fps. in a load with a 3,000 fps average. It all sounds reasonable to me.

Offline 84Jim

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 07:22:54 AM »
As far as varying powder charges and how they affect accuracy, one good test is the so-called "ladder" test.  Simply put, you load a box or so of cartriges and increase the powder charge by .2 or .3 grains for each successive shell, generally staying within your manuals min and max loads.  for a box of 20, this relates to a powder variation for 20 rounds of 3.8 grains for the .2 increment and 5.7 grains for the .3 increment.  The theory is that you will get 1 or more groups (i.e. nodes) within the powder weight range that indicates that your guns barrel harmonics likes that powder/bullet combination and should shoot it accurately even if there is a slight powder weight variation.  Some common sense is required to determine what is safe and practical.  I've done it for 3 of my guns and find it to be both enjoyable and and a good way to see what a gun likes for any powder/bullet combination.

2 of the 3 guns I shot didn't seem to care how much powder was in the case.  For example, my .223 with 55 Vmaxes shot a 12 shot, 1 13/16" 200 yd. group even tho the powder weight changed 2.2 grains (which is a lot for a small case, Varget by the way).  My M1 Garand shot something like a 2" 100 yd group with a .3 grain variation (168 hornady match with IMR 4895).

My M96 6.5x55 did give me a vertical string about 8" high at 100 yds. which is what I would expect.  Two good nodes, one of which confirmed an accuracy load a fellow shooter recommended.

So I guess the conclusion is that if your guns barrel harmonics like the bullet/powder combination of said factory load, it might shoot it just fine even with a 1 gr. variation.  Ya just gotta shoot it and see.

Offline Dand

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 11:01:03 AM »
Lloyd  I think you are adding emphasis to what Richard Lee keeps promoting in his reloading books regarding powder volume or whatever he calls it. I have never taken time to really figure out Lee's volume view point as it was easier to keep weighing powder or use my uniflow and check weigh it.

Good post. Thanks
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: little factory ammo info
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 11:09:48 AM »
I have bought and pulled a couple different loadings from Remington and Winchester.

7MM Mauser, 7MM mag, 30-06 and 7MM/08. I have found the same thing. Varied up to 1.25 grains.

I have a friend who looks far and wide for those 165 280 RN loads!!

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