I got to thinking about how everyone got such good results with the Winchester factory ammo, back when it was availiable. so I looked for a load that would duplicate it. In the Hodgen manual they list a load using Winchester Brass, Winchester WSR Primers, Winchester 748 Powder, and listing several different bullet weights. The only listing without a starting and max load, per bullet weight. I found they shoot extremely well in both my Handi's and my Contenders as well. Right off the top of my head I can not remember the powder charge weight, but if I can find it later today I will post it. Rog