Author Topic: Anyone interested in cleaning and selling skulls? (Read 2049 times)

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **on:** October 27, 2003, 12:52:14 PM »

Since I no longer have my skull business, I will be glad to share with any of you the proper way to work up and market skulls. I sold thousands and if properly cleaned, your customers will come back time after time. It sure will help add to the fur check.

foxtail · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2003, 02:45:27 PM »

Sure, fire away.
Funny thing is that I did a bunch of them, they were awesome. But not a single one sold at the convention.

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2003, 06:10:30 PM »

What I want to know is who do sell my skulls to this year? (Now that you got lazy!)

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2003, 12:52:11 AM »

Hey Wacky;
I don't really know who you might sell your skulls to with any hopes of getting their value unless you do them yourself. And since you don't catch much fur :twisted: you should have time to do it.
There is a large outfit in OK City that buys skulls if they are in need of them but they are like some fur buyers and really pick the grade and will only buy certain skulls. The same can be said for the outfit in Idaho. Otherwise you get told they don't need what you have and you wind up having paid freight and little or no return. They will not normally buy any damaged skulls such as skulls that have been shot -- road kill with broken bone or teeth -- fractured skulls from dispatch using the "bridge of the nose method" etc. -- and sure don't send any rotten skulls!!

Foxtail:
This will be a lengthy discussion when it comes to skull cleaning. Certain skulls require different action. Let's take this a little at a time.
1. If you are catching a large amount of fur, it might be better to freeze all the skulls until after trapping season so it will not take away from your trapline. Skull cleaning can be a time consuming job and must be watched closely. Actual time per skull is not that much if done the way I will be describing and the prices you can get for your properly cleaned skulls in a retail market are well worth the trouble. Lets say you catch a coyote, 2 fox, and a bobcat today. That can add about $40 to the days fur check. There are many times that I got as much for some of my skulls as I did for the pelt itself. And on the muskrats, you can actually get more for the skull than for the pelt. I sold cleaned muskrat skulls for $5 each. That makes rat trapping even much more interesting. And I was set up so that I could clean over 100 muskrat skulls per day. Now put that into your calculator.
There are various ways of cleaning skulls and the size of the skull may be a determining factor in how you wish to clean them.
A. Dermestid beetles clean skulls - you can buy beetles to clean the skulls but for the average trapper, this is not the way to go. Beetles have to be maintained in colonies and require a lot of attention. Temperature control must be maintained in the boxes (I used a lot of aquariums) in the winter or the beetles will not do their work. However, if you want to use beetles, it is not neccessary to buy them. Ever pick up a semi-dried road kill in the summer and see those little black bugs under the carcass. THAT'S THEM. Fresh or a few days old road kill will be full of maggots, but after they are gone the beetles will move in to eat the remaining flesh. There are two types of the beetles. One type will eat fresh flesh and one prefers the drier flesh. Ever contemplate why winter kill or other carcass you find in the woods is so clean after a time? It is not just birds, rodents, etc. The beetles also did their work.
B. Maceration-- this is the stinkiest method. This method involves putting the skull in a container and covering with water and then let the flesh begin to come apart. The stink from this method is at times overwhelming if you don't have a good strong stomach and the smell may stay with the skull for weeks and even months if you use this method. There are ways to rid the skull of the smell but we won't get into that until later.
C. SIMMERING: This is the method I used on most skulls. If properly done, this method is the most effective and quick solution. On a good day, I could clean about 100 muskrat, 20 beaver, that many each of coyote, fox, bobcat, fisher, etc. I had a large 1/4" steel vat that I could also simmer cow skulls, buffalo, burro, horse, etc. in and could do 10 to 15 per day in that. On the deer with antlers, I used a stainless steel pot with a regulated fish cooker.
D. Natural cleaning -- skulls can simply be put out in the open to let nature clean them but this is a long drawn out process and requires a lot of specially made "cages" to keep vermin from running off with the skull or chewing it up.
For the trapper, simmering would be the most logical choice.

ANY QUESTIONS SO FAR ON THE METHODS?

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:31:44 AM »

Joe,You mentioned a place in Idaho???
later
lynx

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:44:58 AM »

Lynx/cat-trapper;
Yes, there is an outfit that buys fur and RAW SKULLS in Idaho. MOSCOW HIDE & FUR. Note I said RAW SKULLS. They buy the skulls uncleaned and pay you only after they have cleaned the skulls and determined there is NO damage. If you are close enough to them, and want to try and sell some to them, I suggest you drive and get a first hand knowledge of what they will buy and what they will pay for specific species. There are a number of skulls they do not need but some they might.

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2003, 03:05:25 AM »

DUH...You're talking about Gary Schroeder...forgot all about him..lol Havent done business with him in quite a while. Had a bad attitude when I did. I do deal with his ex wife Nancy who goes by wissmiss...real sweetheart to deal with. If you ever need any used traps,bulk glands,lure etc...she's got em.
Thanks again
lynx

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2003, 03:34:21 AM »

Lynx/cat-trapper;
Why did you think I mentioned "go drive and check it out"?

I have never sold them skulls. I'll leave things like you stated. I simply put in as a place that bought raw skulls and I think a lot of folk have had bad experiences with them. However, to be fair to any skull buyer, I must add that no one should expect a skull buyer to buy junk skulls since they are really worthless. Even skulls with worn or broken teeth are not worth nearly as much as the good ones. I normally took the bad skulls and either used them for trapping or ground them into powder to use in the compost.
As to misswiss: Yes, I have seen her postings in other places and have visited her website a number of times. If you go to the Moscow fur buying site, you will find a link to her site.

spiderclawz · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2003, 07:47:12 AM »

rascal, I have questions on the simmering method. Regular Tap Water and Boil? Is that all there is to it? I cleaned a deer skull once, boiled it in a clorox bleach and water solution for an hour or so. The skull was yellow for about a year, it is now all white and dried out.

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2003, 10:36:50 AM »

spiderclawz;
One of the cardinal rules in cleaning skulls is NEVER BOIL HARD and NEVER USE CLOROX! Clorox will eat away at the bone composition of the skull and eventually the skull will start flaking off and coming apart. Hard boiling also has a similar effect.

SIMMERING: Do not bring to a boil! I use a crock pots. I had about 30 of them going. You can buy used ones at yard and garage sales often for a couple of dollars. One skull would pay for them. They are excellent for skulls the size of coyote and smaller. As an example of how I would do it: 5 coons skulls would fit in the crock pot. Put the skulls in first and then cover with water (tap water is fine since there is not enough chlorine in it to hurt the skull) and turn the pot on low. You can leave and come back to it in 3 or 4 hours and check the water levels. If the water level is getting down to where the skull is beginning to show, add more water. NOTE: Times will vary from one crock to another so the first couple of times you use it, check it often until you get to the point of being familiar with how long it takes to cook the meat. Your wife, girlfriend, or mother is probably very familiar with this.
The desired affect is to slow cook long enough for the meat to be tender (just like a roast). Once I have reached that point, I turn the crock off and let the water cool some. DONT ever take a steaming hot skull from the pot and rinse in cold water. It can sometimes crack teeth and also damage the skull.
When the skull is cool enough, I then take a water hose with a pressure nozzle and put the nozzle on a fine mist or a little stronger. Holding the skull in my hand, I can then remove most all of the outside flesh. ANOTHER NOTE: Be sure not to lose any of the teeth, since they often come out. Once the outside of the skull is clean, I open the jaws and remove the inside flesh etc. from the mouth area. Again be careful not to lose any teeth as they can stick to the lips and gums and come out. After this is done, I will use a brain spoon to go into the cranial cavity and "stir up" the brains. I then get all out that I can with the spoon and turn once again to the hose and with the same amount of pressure, I spray the cavity so that the remainder of the brains can be removed.
Essentially, this is about all there is to the cleaning process. Getting into the cleaning of the nasal cavitity is often a little difficult but we can discuss that later. Also, the "whitening" we will get into later as well.
I will try and take a picture of one of my skulls and post it later today.
I welcome any questions or comments on this phase of the discussion.

foxtail · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2003, 12:00:57 PM »

Joe, you use the best and most brilliant method I have ever seen.
That is the method I use too. :wink:

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:14:14 PM »

Here is a photo I took of one of my muskrat skulls after I cleaned and whitened it. It will last for years in this condition.

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:31:08 PM »

Foxtail;
You mentioned you did not sell any skulls at a convention. Marketing is a different ball game. You really do not want to target trappers. If I picked pecans all day for months, I might not even be interested in buying shelled pecans :wink:
There are large numbers of osteological collectors who jump at the chance to buy a skull that they do not have in their collection. They also will often buy a skull that is of better quality than the one they currently have.
Native American crafters also buy not only skulls but teeth and claws.
They you have some weirdos who want to buy skulls to put candles around and say a bunch of "oggle buggle" while they have some sort of ritual. These are the ones I try to avoid but you can't always know.
I maintained a large website that had not only furs and skulls but also some exotic pieces and other items of interest to trappers, black powder and native American folk.

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2003, 03:37:39 PM »

Keep it coming Joe!!! This is better than sex(ex wife)!! What's a brain spoon??? You're dealin with rookies here when it comes to skull cleaning!! This is goooooood stuff!!
lynx

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2003, 04:14:28 PM »

Lynx;
A brain spoon is simply a small tool that has a "spoon" shape. You can go into the cranial cavity at the base of the skull "opening where the spine joins the head" and use the spoon to remove the brains.

I have also used an old umbrella stay that is grooved and worked out the brains with that. Actually, once you have a portion of the brain out and the rest is sort of chopped up, you can use the spray nozzle to remove most of the rest. It make take a few times of getting used to doing it but once you become profient at it, I can clean the flesh off of the skull and empty the cranium of brain matter in about a minute.

The actual time spent on a small skull such as a coon or fox is only a few minutes. Of course I have done thousands and just as it is in trapping, the more you do the better you become.

I have sold skulls to universities, sheriffs departments, scouting troops, private and public museums (including one in England), retail stores from New York, to Floriad, to California, as well as to crafters and private collectors from Australia to Japan to Europe. I have over 1500 testimonials on file as to the quality of my workmanship. If it sounds like I am bragging a little, I guess I am. I am proud of the work I did and think I am pretty good at it :wink:

Large skulls such as deer, cow, zebra, boar, bear, etc. are cleaned in the same manner but some of the equipment is different due to the size. I have a large 1/4" steel vat that these are simmered in.

spiderclawz · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2003, 07:13:25 AM »

This is helpful information... Thanks for setting me straight rascal!

I was wondering, are there any precautions you take to avoid the rabies virus when messin around with brain tissue? Is it not an issue after a certain amount of time and because of the cooking process?

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2003, 08:59:25 AM »

spiderclawz;

Anyone handling either raw pelts, carcasses, skulls, etc. should take precautions to avoid disease contact. I am not familiar with the temperatures at which the rabies virus would be destroyed.

While I admit that I may have gone mad on occasion

, I have handled thousands of skulls and pelts and have not had any adverse effects with the exception of Lyme disease from a tick bite off a deer hide.

I would advise anyone to use surgical gloves when handling skulls. They can be purchased by the 100's at a very cheap price. You should always be cautious.

Often I had so many raw skulls, that I would put them in the freezers and sometimes they would be there for weeks while I worked on others. When I took them out of the freezers, I would use the surgical latex gloves after they thawed to handle them and put them in the pots. When they were removed from the pots, I used my bare hands to better feel if there were teeth that I needed to keep and glue back in and also I just had a better feel for the cleaning process. I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS.
Just telling you how I did it. Again, you should take all precaution to avoid disease. I cleaned many skunk skulls (they are the main carrier of the rabies virus in my area) and the only thing I contracted was a case of the Wackyquacker virus :twisted: That is a very rare condition that I won't go into much except to say that it originated in Corrales, NM.

Again, clean skulls at your own risk and use normal precautions.

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2003, 02:30:07 AM »

Keep it coming Joe!! You're killin me here..

This is an awsome post.
later
lynx

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31, 2003, 03:07:31 AM »

Too dang bad you didn't get a good dose...your typing fingers rot off! :evil:

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2003, 05:20:44 AM »

Lynx;
I mentioned skulls that are frozen. I should note that you should never put a frozen skull immediately in a crock pot. You can damage the skull and/or teeth. Depending on the weather, you should leave the raw frozen heads out from 12 to 36 hours prior to putting them in the pot. This allows time for the brain inside the cranium to thaw.

Also, if I were just starting to learn skull cleaning, I might want to take an inexpensive skull (coon work good), and cut it in half lengthwise with some type fine saw (even a hack saw will work). Freeze the skull good and cut it while frozen with the meat etc. still on it. In this way, you can get a good idea of what the inside of the skull looks like. It will help you some when cleaning skulls.

In addition, the nasal bones can be very difficult to work with. You want to remove all the tissue, grissle, from the inside of the nose. Dental picks or something similar will aid in this but try to keep all the "honeycomb" looking bones inside of the nose intact. This is nearly impossible on some very small skulls using the method I am describing. Again a fine mist from the water hose will also help.

Any questions?

Note to WQ; SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

lynx/cat-trapper · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2003, 02:00:53 AM »

OK...now what??? After you've "cooked" em and cleaned em...then what??? Come on Joe...you're keepin me in suspense... :shock:

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2003, 02:19:37 AM »

OK Lynx; :lol:
Next step:
I think I mentioned: NEVER NEVER NEVER use clorox or purex etc. for bleaching skulls. It eats away at the bone.

Now that you have the skull COMPLETELY cleaned, go to your local beauty supply store (yep, that is right) :wink: and buy "CLAIROXIDE 40". Be sure to buy the clear liquid type and not the white paste type. This product is a 40% peroxide and although you store it in plastic containers, don't get it on your hands! Burn the crap out of you if you do. Beauty shop operators dilute it down to put on women's hair for bleaching.

This product is a little expensive but well worth it. It costs me about $6 per quart. However, it can be used over and over and over.

I put the cleaned skull in a plastic container and then pour the solution over the skull until is completely covered. If you are whitening a number of skulls at one time, then I use plastic container that I get from the local grocery that you put food in. They come in different sizes and I get ones that are just big enough to put the skull in and cover. Otherwise you have a lot of solution that is not really being used and could be used on other skulls at the same time.

I cover the skull with the solution late in the evening and then the next morning, I pour off the solution into a gallon jar being carefull not to pour off any teeth from the skull. I then fill the container that has the skull in it with clear water and let soak for an hour or so. Then pour off the water and set the skull to dry. If properly done, the skull will be white as paper.

NOTE: Do not put more than one skull in each container - again, sometimes teeth come out and you will need to put them back in and if you get teeth mixed up, it is very difficult to sort them (even with the same size and species of the animal, the teeth will have slight differences and won't fit properly in the wrong skull).

If the skull does not come out like you want it to (not white enough), ask and we will discuss it.

foxtail · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2003, 07:30:03 PM »

Here is a beav I finished today.

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #23 on:** November 13, 2003, 02:53:54 AM »

Joe that one will do nicely, just send it along my way. I have a list of a few others also :roll:

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2003, 03:38:30 AM »

Foxtail;
GOOD JOB OF CLEANING AN WHITENING.
I notice the rubber band type thing holding the two lower mandibles together. I like using superglue or hot glue gun to glue those two together.
I have sold to novice skull collectors that emailed and said the skull got broken in shipment. This was due to my not having glued the mandibles together. So I started asking the customer if they wanted them glued together or left apart. Most wanted them glued together. So I started asking the customer if they wanted them glued together or left apart. Most wanted them glued.
People not familiar with the nomenclature of a skull may just assume the lower jaws are all one piece. That is not correct in most animals. The 2 halves of the lower jaws are held together with "grissle" cartilidge. That is also what makes cleaning skulls from IMMATURE animals difficult. Same principal as the "soft spot" in a baby's skull. On very young animals, the sutures of the skull have not fully formed and hardened and the skull from a very young animal may completely come apart when cleaned. Then you have a long tedious chore of replacing each portion of the skull back into it's original placing and that takes time and experience in dealing with osteological specimens. The same can be said for most oppossum. They are so greasy and come apart so easily.
NOW, if you want to get into the "big bucks". try cleaning an entire skeleton and selling that! If you get $100 for a fox skeleton, you have earned every penny of it :lol:

foxtail · « **Reply #25 on:** November 13, 2003, 07:20:57 AM »

I have found that hot glue does not give me good bonding. Many come apart and then it is very difficult to get the bones back into the correct orientation again. I use elmers glue and hold them together with rubber bands if I can. There are a few times that I can just hold the bones together while I am watching tv and by the time I think about it again, the glue is dry enough to let go of. Beaver are too difficult to do that with as the suture is not real pronounced.

rascal (Joe Duncan) · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2003, 01:36:04 PM »

Foxtail;
I have never had any problem with suture connection on the beaver mandibles as long as they are perfectly cleaned. As to the hot glue; I haven't had a problem like you mention (coming apart) as long as I don't put to much glue and I really apply plenty of pressure squeezing the two halves together. I do however, prefer to use Super Glue since it is so quick and I often was gluing 50 to 100 skulls per day depending on the type and size. I would glue skulls at my computer as I did my other work. 15 seconds with the super glue and I could sit the skull down and forget it.

foxtail · « **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2003, 05:44:50 PM »

Never had any on hand, but I would use it if I had it on hand. Always had the elmers on hand. The hot melt might just be a crummy type or perhaps I am not quick enough on the draw.
I don't go overboard with the amount I do though as you have to store them till you sell or give them away. I have given quite a few to the nature center for the touch table.