Author Topic: My Gun Was Jammed !  (Read 1682 times)

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Offline S.S.

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« on: November 06, 2003, 06:05:51 AM »
That was a quote from Jessica Lynch (Iraqi P.O.W.)
Why won't Uncle Sam listen to our soldiers
and get them some real weapons to fight with!
I get pissed off every time I hear these stories
about the piece of crap M-16!
It was a piece of junk when they first made it,
mine was a piece of junk!
and it is still a piece of junk!
I would simply refuse to take one into combat again!
The best thing to hope for is to kill one of your enemies
with your knife and take his Kalashnikov!

I Had to vent a little steam there.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Mikey

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My gun was jammed
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2003, 08:38:45 AM »
Hay S. Sumner:  You got lots of company here brother.  Mine went by the wayside after my first magazine full failed to penetrate thin bamboo.  The AK-47 works much, much better.  Mikey.

Offline NRAJOE

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2003, 09:33:02 AM »
Why do you think I have two AK's and no AR's?  :)

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Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2003, 10:15:34 AM »
S.Sumner you guys who were in battle with one know for sure.  I just never had any interest in them or owning one.  The .223 just doesn't do anything for me. Now it doesn't seem which gun you have an AK or SKS in 7.62x39 its a much better weapon and they operate flawlessly. I seen the story about the M16 on the history channel and the beginning of it in Veitnam isn't pretty with all the jamming. We sent our servicemen and women off into conflicts and wars with it and it still don't work the way it should.  One job I had here I made 155mm howitzers, barrel slides, hyd. units, brakes, gas shocks,(sub units) then they went to waterveliet arsenal to be assembled.  I made machines that made the tank engine rotor and turret bearings all my stuff worked without a glitch??? So why can't we develope a good gun??   BigBill

I gave all you guys my upmost in quality the lives of 11 men are on the line with the 155mm howitzer and it has to work flawlessly.  There is no room for mistakes or our people die as I was told when they hired me. And I took it personal and did my best.

Offline securitysix

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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2003, 05:39:12 AM »
Quote
So why can't we develope a good gun??


We did.  It was called the M-14.  And there was one called the M1 Garand, and one called the 1903 Springfield.

Offline His lordship.

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Different ideas, same goal.
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2003, 10:47:10 AM »
I was mad after reading how Pvt. Lynch's M-16 failed too.  As to what is the answer...there is a good book called "Missfire" that went into details of how Eugene Stoner's M-16 (AR-15) was fooled with to meet army needs.  Maybe we should look at going back to his basic design.  The Government really messed with Stoner, I learned from that about patience!

I have a Rumanian AK-47 in 7.62 X 39, nice gun, never jambs, and accurate too.  This stuff about them being inaccurate is bunk.  With the right ammo I managed a 3/4" five shot group at 50 yards a few weeks ago from a bench rest with GI sites!

The M-14 uses too large a cartridge, the Europeans wanted a compromise over the .30 caliber, and wanted a 6 MM bullet (.276) for NATO standards.  The Americans wanted the .30, a shortened 30-06 to save brass and operate in a shorter action, and got their way as the main NATO member.  But the M-14 simply recoils too much on full auto for control.

Then the Russians wanted a smaller caliber in their Ak after seeing the M-16 in Vietnam, the 5.45 X 39, AK-74.  Mikhail Kalishnikov, the original AK designer was against this.  If you look at the specs on the ammo, the .30 cal. 7.62 X 39 beats the .223.

The answer is the following options, a totally new design using the 6 MM cartridge, or using the new Russian design that they have come out with, it is a modified AK that has better accuracy and the great reliability of the Russian guns.  Some people say we should only use American designs, but look at the Beretta P-92 pistol, and the Benelli semi-auto shotgun that are now GI issue.  We are using foreign armaments.  Maybe we should write our congressmen to get this mess cleaned up?! :-)

Offline crow_feather

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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2003, 04:33:06 PM »
BigBill,

Overseas, I won't mention what bombat area, but the personal computer wasn't developed yet, I fired 155 howitzers.

We bet an Australian F O that we could hit a bunker 11 miles out in less than 10 rounds.  We enjoyed drinking his beer.  

You guys did a great job.

C F
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2003, 12:26:01 AM »
Quote from: crow-feather
BigBill,

Overseas, I won't mention what bombat area, but the personal computer wasn't developed yet, I fired 155 howitzers.

We bet an Australian F O that we could hit a bunker 11 miles out in less than 10 rounds.  We enjoyed drinking his beer.  

You guys did a great job.

C F


We seen a film on the ones we were building they have 30 mile range and 55 gallon drum accuracy its a very impressive weapon. I also made the machines that made the breeches for the barrels too for WV arsenal too. Funny back in the 80's I was rebuilding machines that have been sitting in mothballs since WW2 for WV arsenal too. Now as far as the M14 you can't beat the stopping power of the 308??  This is the problem too the 223 stops these guys but doesn't  kill them they just keep on fighting its ment to be more humane in for war.  I fired an M14 in both semi-auto and full auto and all I can say is I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of that baby.  It was a lot smoother than I thought it was going to be.  I heard the rise on the M14 in full auto is why they got rid of it well one of the reasons anyway.  My dealer also has a belt fed rifle like we see the guys carrying in Iraq too with the ammo box.  Boy is that a heavy puppy without the ammo, I wouldn't want to carry that all day the dam thing needs wheels??   Big guns don't leave home without them!!!!   BigBill

Offline usmcbeck

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Jessica Lynch LMAO
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2003, 02:43:05 PM »
I am so tired of hearing her name to beging with.  What about everyone else that was captured with her?  What about the Marines that went and saved them all.  I guess they are not so called Hero's to the United Sates.  As for her rifle jamming.  Yes the M-16 sucks but it will shoot and shoot well if you keep it clean.  There have been atleast 5 different stories that have come out about the whole accident and capture of Her and everyone else.  I think she is full of crap all she did was lay there and bleed.  Not because her weapon Jammed because she was SCARED and INJURED in the accident.  

Sorry fellas I had to vent a bit.
Semper Fi
Sgt. Beck USMC

Offline bryan

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2003, 06:16:18 PM »
I'm with you Beck, I never had any problems with my M-16 as long as I did my part to keep it CLEAN! I think the ammo is more to blame than the weapon.  I was in the Corps for 6 years and I can only remember firing my M-16 on full auto 1 time, So I don't think the recoil of the M-14 is that big of deal.
I am also getting tired of hearing her name, alot of Marines and soldiers have been killed, atleast she got to come home. So she has a limp , who cares , I don't.  Wal-Mart sells straws everyday, go buy a box and suck it up. I wish Larry Flint would publish her pictures in Hustler that way everyone would know how she really is.
I served with a Beck in Oki, 9TH ESB   96-97 Are you the same one?

Semper Fi
Sgt Bryan Ratermann
USMCR

Offline usmcbeck

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2003, 01:09:11 AM »
Thanks Ratermann I appriciate the support.  I know that there are a lot of others out there who agree with us.  That wasn't me with you at 9th ESB.  I did quite a bit of work with them when I was enroute to Tandom Thrust 01 to Australia.  We took quite a few trucks from ya'll.  I only spent 4 months in Oki thank god.  To damn hot.  I was in Iwakuni from 00-03 just got home.  CSSD-36 we were apart to the FSSG supporting the MWSS-171 and the rest of the wing.  

Semper Fi
Sgt Beck, Adam

Offline kevin.303

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a canadians view
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2003, 09:50:10 AM »
i find it odd that the military uses a cartridge that most people won't use to hunt deer with and they expect it to be effective in combat. wasn't one of the big problems with the M-16 is that the army used Ball powder instead of the IMR powder it was designed for? in previous conversations on this subject people have said that the .223 is better then to carry in combat then cartridges like the .30-06,.308 or .303 because you can carry twice as much and it won't we more weight. but if it takes 2 or 3 shots from that M-16 as compared to the one it takes from a garand you'll still won't be any farther ahead. a buddy tryed to talk me into joining the army a while back and i told him not until they get rid of the mattel toy! :)
" oh we didn't sink the bismarck, and we didn't fight at all, we spent our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball. chasing after women while our ship was overhauled, living it up on grapefruit juice and sick bay alcohol"

Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2003, 08:11:39 AM »
I think the .223 was designed to just to wound the bad guys and not to kill them.  Even when these guys are wounded they still want to fight thats the problem.  The 30-06 and 308 put the bad guys out of the action faster by killing them.  Another thing is the M16 won't digest sand the way the AK47 does it takes a licking and keeps on ticking.  Our goverment should of bought all those surplus sks's our guys would have better guns or at least ones that would work??                                    BigBill

I'm tired of hearing about Priv. Lynch too it was just done for publicity the whole rescue thing.  They sure had a camera there fast didn't they?? Now tell me it wasn't planned that way a head of time?

I'd take a 308 M14 semi-auto or a 30-06 garand any day over an M16. Its all about stopping and killing power in a war right??

Offline S.S.

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2003, 09:54:06 AM »
The original 223/ M16 combination was pretty formidable
as fas as "Wounds" are concerned. But when they changed
the powder and rifling twist, that is when things went down hill.
The original twist was considerably slower which made the
projectile unstable in flight. Upon impact it would yaw and
tumble. This did create a terrible wound. When the rifling
was tightened it did make the gun more accurate, but now the
bullet normally makes a clean .22 - .25 caliber hole instead of a nice splatter!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline ghostZ

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2003, 09:58:48 AM »
what difference does the powder change make?

Offline usmcbeck

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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2003, 11:08:35 AM »
The M16 is designed to wound the enemy.  Theoretically if you kill someone oh well they just carry on without them where as if you wound someone it takes 1 to 2 other people out of the battle to help them.  That is if they really care about there comrades the way we do ours. :D

Offline colt451911

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2003, 12:16:16 PM »
Quote
That is if they really care about there comrades the way we do ours.

Beck makes a very good point, the thought that if you wound one his buddies will take him to the hostpital and be out of the fight too was flawed when it was developed to fight the russians.  Now that our major enemies are glorified gang bangers in third world countries that expect to die anyway, the philosophy is extremely flawed, not to mention what about special operations?  Those guys go in in a hurry and usually try to get out in a hurry when the job is done, often under fire the entire time, the battle might be over before anyone has the oppertunity to take the doped up wounded guy to the area witch doctor.  As for private Lynch, I respect her for serving but its true that rifles rarely jam up on their own, if she really tried to fire it it probably had enough sand in it to make a new beach.  Just a note for Beck and other military guys, I (and I presume many Americans) have loads of respect for the guys that risked their lives to save Lynch and recover the bodies of her comrades.

Offline Double D

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2003, 01:05:41 PM »
Been watching Jessica Lynch on TV and she denies all the hero stories.  In fact she says she doesn't like them and others were real hero's that day. she give full credit to others.

It's real obvious that when one of the  media organizations put out the hero story, the Pentagon did little or nothing to shut it up.  People got cranked up about the story and it served its propaganda and morale boosting purpose.

When the incident occurred our family talked about the reports that their weapons wouldn't work. My son and I are both former Marines and he is currently an Army blachhawk pilot.  My daughter-in-law was an Army officerat Fort Bliss in a support unit similiar to Lynch's .

I was very critical of  the jammed and dirty rifle story and cited "immediate action drills".  I pointed out that when I was in the Marines I was an electrican and not a grunt and I knew how to deal with all kinds of stoppages and trained for those events all the time.  

My daughter-in-law pointed out that her army support unit was suppose to fam fire their M-16's once a year and it involved firing 30 rounds at pop up targets.  Daughter in law also said it was not unusal for the fam fire training to be postponed indefinitely to meet other more "important" commitments.  She said that even then when they went out to fam fire the individual soldier didn't have an assigned weapon they shot.  They shot a range weapon.

I have no criticism of Jessica Lynch, she doesn't claim to be anything that the media makes her out to be.

I have some pretty harsh things to say about Army doctrine that sends support troops in or near combat without proper training.  I saw one report that the drivers of the Army vehicles in Lynch's unit were told if they came under fire to drive like hell and get out of the area. That was the sum total of their ambush immediate action training.

So my Marine colleagues up thread don't to be to harsh on Jessica Lynch or the indvidual soldiers, they are  a product of their training.

Thank your lucky stars that the Marines have always maintained the doctrine of every Marine a Rifleman!
Semper Fi.

Douglas Dickens
USMC 1966-1972

Offline savageT

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My Gun Was Jammed !
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2003, 01:19:52 PM »
colt451911,
Having watched the made for TV movie and the many interviews PFC Lynch gave afterward returning, she gave "her side of the story". I wonder how much is fact or fiction?  Oh, I don't doubt for a moment that her M16 wasn't working properly.  But.........did she give it proper maintenance before going out on that mission?  I seem to remember the 1st sergeant was always on your ass about keeping your weapon immaculate!  This wasn't the first time U.S. Troops fought in desert sorroundings, dealing with the dust and sand. Sitting in the back of a Humvee on her first mission, cleaning her weapon as they were entering unfamiliar territory, admittedly not too prepared!!  She wasn't exactly front-line troops, but supply personnel and not looking for hostile fire.  Can I blame her or her CO and NCO for not training her better?  Just sad that people died needlessly.  War is HELL.

Jim
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Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2003, 02:04:56 PM »
Wasn't the M16 round made to tumble?? The bullet weight is heavier on one side to make it tumble.  I remember reading something about it years ago.                                                        BigBill

Offline redial

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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2003, 05:55:30 PM »
DD,

As another Jarhead, I had the same thoughts. Fellas, NOTHING works unless you know it, learn it and take care of it. Like wives, ferinstance. :eek:

There are some real tales of heroism from that day and what peeves me is that a movie was made depicting someone who was a passenger in a vehicle that crashed and "woke up in the hospital" rather than the nameless supply clerk who killed seven Iragi mortarmen before being captured!

No one mentions all the dead either. PC chaps my ass!

Redial

Offline Mikey

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My Rifle Jammed
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2003, 06:28:42 AM »
OK guys, this bites me just a bit.  Lynch herself has come out publically and both denied and disclaimed the incorrect stories about her capture and the actions she was supposed to have taken during the firefight.  She has personally and publically set the story straight and seeks no fame for herself.  She is still saddened by the loss of her best friend, the first woman to die in that combat theater.  Lay off guys.

This does not make her any less deserving.  Not a danged bit.  She may have been a passenger in a vehicle when she got hit, but she was on combat duty and during combat operations and she sustained horrendous injuries.  Her comrades died in that firefight.  One telling tale of a Vietnam incident had a radioman shot through the head at the very beginning of the fight.  Without even looking all thought him dead, with a bullet hole through his helmet.  Four hours later, and after the fight was over, he wakes up - the bullet penetrated his helmet but skirted around his helmet liner and exited the back of his helmet.  He was awarded the Purple Heart - his injuries were justified and he received them in combat and doesn't have a limp.

There is nothing that separates Jessica Lynch and that soldier, except a bunch of years and different theaters of combat.  

She has set the story straight on her own, and considers those who rescued her and those who fell in combat to be the true heros.  That's a real soldier and one I would be proud to have under my command.  

Sorry for some of you guys that she didn't turn out to be the Marine from Hell that took her own scalps with a rusty bayonet, even with broken ankles and a broken back and an empty gun but please do not think that she is undeserving in any regard, especially when she was there and we weren't.  

Three more things:  (1) that M16 bullet wasn't designed to tumble - that's what happend when a light weight fast moving bullet hits resistance like a human body.  Period.  If it was designed to tumble the Geneva or Hague Convention types would have been all over us.  (2).  The wound one and two more leave to help his buddy works only in the American Forces, that I know of.  It certainly doesn't work for the former Comm Bloc forces or any others we have encountered recently. (3).  The M16 was designed to replace former battle rifles, and they were all designed to kill the enemy.  As with point number 1, if you design anything for battle that is not intended to kill the enemy you face the same international concerns.  And, most importantly for anyone who has used the M16 in combat - if the other guy doesn't go down, dead, he might still be able to shoot you.  That's why you just don't 'wound' someone.  

And Sgt. Raterman - I'm just so glad you don't have to hobble on over to Wal-Mart's to buy a box of straws so that you can suck it up along with your ol jarhead buddy Sgt. Beck while you're telling your tales of the Marine Corps.  Yeah, it's too bad that all she did was lay there, unconscious, with shattered bones and bleeding while her dead and dying buddies were collecting the final rounds to their heads.  Get the hay off it men, she doesn't deserve your immature derision.   :x

Offline redial

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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2003, 05:09:47 PM »
Mikey,

You're right in that she does indeed deserve her Purple Heart, for the reasons you stated. She does too deserve our respect for her sacrifices. I especially admired her willingness to divulge matters of unspeakable significance to a young woman.

Where I have trouble is not with Pfc Lynch at all but rather what's been done with her experiences by those intent on using them for their own goals. I knew this would get touchy and to be clear, I certainly mean her no slight.

How many of us have heard of her counterpart that earned a Silver Star only a few feet away? Almost no one. Why not?

If nothing else, Pfc Lynch's experiences reminded America what war sometimes looks like and that bad things happen even if you're a supply clerk, a girl and supposedly a REMF in a safe rear assignment. You're still a soldier, an American in Injun Country.

Maybe now the networks will let this girl go home in peace. But I doubt it. I wish her all the best.

Redial
Been there, came back

Offline Double D

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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2003, 05:45:26 PM »
I heard reference on FOX today the the incident identified as  Lynch's "last stand" is being investigated for consideration for posthumous Medal of Honor for the "Marine" that did do the act.  Not once did they say his  name.  Now that pissed me off. they mentioned Lynch by name but not the Marine. It's also the first tiem I have heard a  marine associated with the incident and not a soldier.

I think that is what those who express anger at Lynch are referring to.  They aren't angry with her, but the media for not giving credit where credit is due.

Offline bryan

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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2003, 06:12:10 PM »
Mikey,
I have fought for my right to say what I say.
So Mikey have you fought for your rights and freedoms or have you depended on the rest of us to do that for you. If you did that's great ! If you didn't that fine to. I know not everyone can or will.
I'm sorry if I offened you in any way!
SEMPER FI

Offline savageT

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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2003, 02:01:22 AM »
Quote from: bryan
Mikey,
I have fought for my right to say what I say.
So Mikey have you fought for your rights and freedoms or have you depended on the rest of us to do that for you. If you did that's great ! If you didn't that fine to. I know not everyone can or will.
I'm sorry if I offened you in any way!
SEMPER FI


Sgt. Bryan,
If you only had a clue!!!!........................I respect Mikey's privacy. I won't go there. Flaming will NOT be permitted or go unnoticed.
This subject is CLOSED.  

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.