Luger At Last!!!

[Cleburne]

Picked up a Luger from a friend who bought a large assortment of guns from a widow. I think it's a .30 caliber commercial model. No marshal stampings. Not pristine but looks to be all matching; marked "DWM" on the toggle and "GERMANY" under the serial number at the front of the receiver. No import stamp. Finish overall is a brown patina. Four inch barrel, lanyard loop on the rear of the receiver, and stock attachment lug on the rear of the grip. The magazine appears to be a replacement with a black plastic base. Bore looks to be in excellent condition but needs to be brushed out.
 
I know nothing about the various Luger models and am happy to have a good shooter. I've always wanted a genuine Luger but they have always been at least one step ahead of my finances, except for now.
 
I'm looking forward to learning more about this particular model and disassemblying it for a good cleaning and lube job. Then off to the range! 
 
Any information you GBO experts can share on this or other Lugers will be much appreciated.

[Mikey]

Cleburne:  sounds like you found yourself a nice commercial German made 30 Luger.  Congradulations.  Ammo might be a bit pricey (Winchester stuff is waaaay to expensive) but brass from Starline and 90 gn .308 rnsp bullets from Hornady are readily available.  VihtaVouriOy powders have a nice factory load for the 30 Luger that sends that bullet to 1280'/sec and that is the load I prefer in my 30 Luger - aka 7.65 Parabellum or 7.65 Luger.
There is some ammo available but I would avoid American made stuff as it is way too weak (underpowered for liability purposes) and may not even function the pistol - the cure for that was to bugger up the pistol by trying to get the recoil spring out to shorten it a coil or two until the pistol worked.  Don't bother, just load your ammo to european factory specs and you will be tres happy.
Also, do not dry-fire the Luger pistol unless you have a fired case in the chamber.  In many instances these pistols have not been fired in so long the firing pin could easily snap if you try dry firing it.  Replacing the firing pin is easy but there is no sense in busting up what you have.  If you don't know if the firing pin is in proper shape and condition, place a pencil (round one) in the bore, with the eraser against the bolt face and pull the trigger (after cocking the action) - the pencil should hit the ceiling and the firing pin mark should be clear and in the center of the eraser. 
Without looking at one of those incredibly detailed reference books I don't know what particular model you have but the 4" commercial Lugers are nice finds.  Get a few more magazines and have some fun with it.  Although the piece may be 'old' in that it was probably made in the 1920s or 30s it could easily be a commercial model imported to the US during that time and sold by Stoger. 
Luger pistols were designed to run dry - that is, they do not need tons of oil or other lubricant to keep working properly as they are a finely made piece of machinery.  Good find.  Have fun.

[1911crazy]

Is the 7,65 mauser a 32acp??
How many different calibers are there for lugers??   9mm parabellium, 30 luger, 7,63 mauser ect?
I been staying away from the german handguns because there ammo finiky but it seems to me Mikey has a handle on it.  I did pick up a P1 in 9mm luger a while back.

[Cleburne]

Mikey, thanks for the great information. I was shocked when searching online for.30 Luger ammo. WOW, a buck a shot!    Even though I don't plan on shooting the gun extensively, I do reload other cartridges so may just invest in the dies and components for this one. 
 
1911crazy, it's .30 Luger caliber. I'm not a semi-auto pistol guy but have always admired the iconic German pistols, i.e. the Broomhandle Mauser, P08 and P38. I'm thrilled to now own a Luger.

[Mikey]

Crazy:  a 7.65mm Luger is not a 32 ACP.  The 7.65mm Luger, the original Luger caliber, is a bottlenecked cartridge, very similar to the 7.62x25mm Tok/30 Mauser round in appearance, but a couple of mm shorter - 22mm for the Luger, 25mm for the Tok.  Both share the same rimless base as does the 9mm, 38 Super, 9x23.  The 7.65mm Luger is the parent case for the 9x19mm or 9mm Luger.  The 30 Luger puts a 93 gn .308 - .309 bullet downrange from a 4" bbl at about 1280'/sec.  The Tok takes a 85 gn bullet (.308 - .309) and sends it downrange at 1400'/sec or better from a Tok.  The 30 Mauser, from which the Tokarev round was 'morphed' by the commies, put a 88 gn .308 - .309 bullet downrange at about 1400'/sec. 
The capability of the 30 Luger was limited by the relative strength of the toggle action used in the Luger pistols.  However, there are/were two loading for the 7.65mm Luger; one for the pistol and one for the carbine, which was just a long barreled pistol but it is advised not to use the carbine rounds in the pistol.
The old Lyman manuals, and possibly newer ones too carry loading data for the 30 Luger.  These loads are on the mild side and I  would feel comfortable using them in a older pistol.  Now, if you have old 9mm Walther P-38 hanging around you can get 30 Luger barrels made for them too.....

[1911crazy]

BTW;    Congrats on your luger find.  I browse past them because most of them are way over priced.  I did grab the new walther P1 in 9mm luger a while back.  I haven't shot it yet/  My buddy has a luger but he never takes it out.  Maybe someday i can make him an offer on it. I'm in no rush right now.
Due to the lack of supply on the C&R guns, there drying up and the availability is slim to none i started looking at the turn of the century C&R colts,  S&W and H&R ect handguns and rifles.  The Surplus Military guns are also going up as we speak too.  I'm looking at my options on thinning the heard and going in another direction too.  There all fun to shoot.  I'm not giving up on the surpls military stuff i'm just waiting to see what shows up as i go.
Mikey/guys/gals;  I'm still gun shy on what 9mm parabellium/luger ammo to shoot out of my walther P1.  Its orginal and going to stay that way.

[Mikey]

Crazy:  Your Walther P-38/P1 is/was built to shoot mil-spec ammo.  Just about any NATO ball or other mil-spec ball will shoot just fine and probably shoot to point of aim for you. 
I avoid any +P round in any of my older pistols.  While it may be alright to shoot the stuff once in a great while, if your life depends on it, but the + in +P means higher pressures and you do not need that in older mil-spec pistols.  As long as the stuff is not advertised as +P or +P+, you should be just fine.  I would also avoid hollow points or soft nosed ammo in the older mil-spec pistols.  They simply were designed to function with ball ammo and may simply not be reliable with anything but ball.  Yours may shoot the stuff just fine but many do not.  And if you ever decide to carry the thing for personal defense you are not in bad company.  The P-38/P1 may not be the latest craze in dao pistols but it is still very capable and I have never seen anyone walk away from a double tap to the chest with 9mm ball regardless of which pistol it came from......

[1911crazy]

In one of the latest gun rags they compare the P38 to the P1.  Just speed reading thru it they mentioned the P1 with its softer frame and wear from the block. I guess thats the roller block wearing into the frame area.  I figure a little extra moly in that spot will solve that.

[Greg B.]

I have a 1937 Mauser  P-08 that I have been fighting with for the last 8 years to get to function reliablely. It wasn't until I joined the Luger Forum that I was able to make progress. Spring packs are available through Wolff Springs and Brownells. Heller Arms out of Missouri sells a number of parts and does repairs. If you join the Luger Forum you will also find guys who do expert refinishing, grip making, rebuilding Luger magazines and restoring of historical Luger holsters. Simpson Ltd. sells these guns and if you look at their site you can see many of the different variations and prices. From the description of your pistol if all parts except the magazine have matching numbers your pistol may still be consideres collectable if the finish is original and other parts are not replaced.
I hate to keep singing the praises of the Luger Forum but there is good info. there as there is here: I learned how to repair my Colt SAA on this Forum from one of the members posts.
Greg B.

[Cleburne]

Thanks for the info Greg. I'm familiar with Wolff Springs, having replaced springs in a Ruger Bisley Vaquero a couple years ago. Have done a little business with Brownells back in the stone age, i.e. before personal computers came on the scene. I'll look into the Luger references you've provided. I did order some Fiocchi ammo. It arrived yesterday so I'm looking forward to giving the gun a good workout as soon as I can get to the range. Will save the brass to reload.
 
Cleburne

[Mikey]

Cleburne:  the Fiocchi ammo you ordered should be mild enough for both you and the Luger, but may not cycle the action.  Years ago we found that in order to make some of the older 7.65s and 9mm Lugers work reliably we would have to take a coil or two off the recoil spring.  Loading the 7.65mm Luger case to higher pressures may not be the best idea for a pre WWII Luger pistol.  Wolfe Springs may offer some reduced recoil springs for lighter loads.  HTH and good luck.

[Cleburne]

Thanks Mikey. We'll see how she does once I can take her to the range. This weekend's out however. Wedding to attend tomorrow and Sunday celebrating Father's Day with the family. Hopefully I'll be able to report back after the following weekend. 

[Cleburne]

WOW! Got back from the range a short while ago. All I can say is "Whoooaaaa Momma!" what a great pistol. I've heard people say their gun shot like lasers and now I know what they mean. This .30 caliber Luger was puching five shot, one hole groups consistantly offhand. Distance was only seven yards, but I'm pumped none the less. Wonderful time. I let a couple other shooters try it and they had the same results. It was their first time shooting a Luger. Nice light trigger. Smooth action. No hiccups, none! The Fiocchi ammo performed beautifully. I plan on picking up some more while it's available. Finding the fired brass is chore though. The gun throws them towards the right, in back of the shooter. At any rate, the Luger to my mind is to gun buffs what the '57 Chevy is to car affectionados .... a true classic. 

[Greg B.]

Sounds like you got a good one and won't need any spring replacements.  When you are taking it apart to clean it be very carefull if you are removing the grips. The one on the left side can chip near the magazine release button if bent outward too much. This is called the million dollar chip since that is the estimated damages done to collectable pistols. Enjoy.
Greg B.

[Cleburne]

Thanks Greg. I was careful, but the grip panels lifted off easily without incident. The gun was remarkably clean. The previous owner seems to have taken good care of the pistol. I'm still very excited to own it. 

[1911crazy]

I been tempted to buy a few in different calibers but the prices are so high now. I found one in 7.65 mauser but i'm not sure what that is.   I forget more than i remember.

[Greg B.]

1911,
That 7.65 you found was probably the 7.65 Parabellum or 7.65X23 or .30 Luger. All are the same cartridge. The 7.63 Mauser has a 25mm case and is a different cartridge. It was chambered in the C-96. The Tokarev pistol also fired a similar round but this ammunition should not be used in the Mauser C-96 as it is more powerfull.
 

[Mikey]

Greg:  what was the problem with your P-08 that it would not function.  You mentioned Wolff Springs - did you have to install a lower powered recoil spring in yours to get it to work??? 

[Greg B.]

Mickey, that was one of the problem areas. It quit stovepiping when I put in the lowest power main spring. I also changed most of the other coil springs with the exception of the trigger. The mismatched FXO mag that came with it seems to be fine. However the first aftermarket replacement was of such poor quality that when loaded the sides bulged slightly and I had to take the grips off  to get it out of the pistol. The aftermarket Mec Gar fits best and does not bulge.  Last but not least ammunition. Since I handload getting the right cartridge length based on the shape of whatever FMJ bullet I was loading proved to be a matter of experiment. Once you get one bullet working and go to buy another box the supplier doesn't have anymore and it is back to the drawing board. Anyway the pistol itself is in good shape and worked fine the last time I shot it.
Mickey, what model Luger(s) are you shooting and how is it working?

[Mikey]

Greg:  get yourself a couple of boxes of the Hornady 88 or 90 gn round nose soft points for the 30 Luger.  They are the proper diameter and weight.  The weight started at 93 gns but Hornady makes the bullet to fits the 30 Luger (93 gn) and the 30 Mauser (88 gn) and the 7.62x25mm Tokarev (85 gn). 
My 30 Luger is a 6" Naval Model with all sorts of mismatched parts and reduced recoil springs.  It works fine with VhitaVuory handloads and the Hornady bullet.  Accuracy is excellent and recoil is on par with any other Luger I have worked with.  I also have a P-08 in 9mm with a 4" bbl and whenever that gets used it is with ball ammo. 
I am also having a 30 Luger barrel made for my Walther P-38 - the P-38s came in 3 calibers, 9mm, 7.65mm Luger and 22lr.  The last two are tough to find so I am having a barrel made by a guy who called himself the Lugerman, in Pennsylvania, or at least that is what he told me he was doing about a year and a half ago and after I paid him - basically, all he is doing is sleveing a 9mm barrel but he is sure draggin' his butt on this job and at this point I would not recommend him to anyone else.  I paid him the money he wanted and still have not seen any work from him.  He isn't so far away though that I can't pay him a visit and I just may do that.....

[Greg B.]

Sorry to hear about your problems with Lugerman. It appears that Eugene is known for this type of business practice although others have commented that he does decent work when you finally get it back.
Your Navy sounds like the ultimate fun gun. Since it has mismatched parts you don't have to worry about ruining its value to collectors if a numbered part breaks. Even as a shooter the price of such a pistol would be beyond my reach.
Good luck with your P-38 project.

[Mikey]

Greg:  interesting that you know about Eugene's practices.  In one of his responses to me he says that although it takes a lot of time to complete a project we get the lifetime of the benefit.  Right, if I live long enough to (1) get it, (2) shoot it, and (3) remember where it came from.......
Yes, what was supposed to take only a few weeks has now gone one for almost 1.5 years.  I've lost confidence in the guy and am almost afraid of the 'quality' of what I will get back.  Well, at least it is just a 'sleeved' barrel and not one he 'manufactured' from a billet of steel but I have not had a response from him to my last e-mail.  It sounds like you have had 'dealings' with him too.........
Yep, the 30 Luger from a 6" tube is a good shooter, and accurate too.  It is pretty good on small game and I can easily pot a rabbit out to 50 yds.  I suppose I should sell the P-38 and get a Browning Hi-Power - I know I can get a 30 Luger barrel for the Hi-Power from Bar-Sto Barrels in fairly short order and really enjoy myself. 

[Cleburne]

Mikey,
 
Just curious, with the cost of .30 caliber Luger ammo, and its components being relatively less available than 9mm, why would you consider a .30 caliber barrel to replace a 9mm Hi Power factory barrel. I don't have enough experience with either caliber to claim one is more accuate than the other, although my limited experience with my .30 caliber commercial Luger has made a very favorable impression on me. Is the 9mm less accurate in Lugers, or in any handgun for that matter?
 
Cleburne

[Mikey]

Cleburne:  you are correct about the cost of 30 Luger ammo but when I started with the 30 Luger, ammo was inexpensive.  I recall driving past a old, small gunshop on the NY/Vt. border many years ago, turning around just to see what he had on his shelves and found 6 boxes of the Remington 7.65mm Luger ammo.  They were marked at the same price he placed on them when he first got them which was about 10 years before I saw them.  At $5 per box I could not refuse, ya know, and I have reloaded that brass any number of times.
I would consider a 30 cal barrel to replace the 9mm barrel in a High Power for both the novelty of the caliber and because I feel it is a more accurate and flat shooting round. 
The 30 Luger is one of those cailbers you should really reload for and any inexpensive reloading set-up would suffice.  30 Luger brass is available from Star-Line and .308 diameter bullets are easily obtainable from Hornady and Sierra, both in rnsp configuration which makes them great for the 30 Luger and 30 Mauser both. 
I am not certain the 9mm is any less accurate in the P-08 than the 7.65mm except that for the pistols, most of the 9s may have seen some military use whereas the 7.65 was sold to the civilian market and may not have seen wartime or adverse conditions.  That being said however, I have a wartime 9mm P-08 that is pretty dang accurate.  The 30 cal extends the range of the Luger pistol for small game and I will take small game shots with the 6" 30 that I would not be able to make with the 4" 9mm.  Please don't forget that the 9mm of the Luger days was a 124 gn bullet at 1090'/sec, whereas the 30 threw a 93 gn slug at 1280'/sec - much flatter shooting.  Also, at one time, I believe Peters made 30 Luger ammo for the Luger Carbine, and I also once used some Norma carbine ammo - 93 gn rnsp with a cupro-nickle jacket.

[Captain Bob]

I found this post when looking for info on a possible source for .30 Luger barrels for a 1911. Very intertesting info on here and I'm glad I found GBO. Just thought I would add some more info gained from my personal experience with my P-08 in .30 Luger. I, too, was appalled at the cost of .30 Luger ammo and the sometimes scarcity of it. I noted that surplus 7.62x25 ammo was plentiful and CHEAP. As the case was nearly identical to .30 Luger except for the length I wondered if I could make .30 Luger ammo out of the Tokarev stuff.
The short answer is yes. I was able to pull bullets, rough cut off the case, form by running it into a .30 Luger die and then trimming to proper length. Using the same salvaged bullets and powder, and starting very light, I worked up until I had reliable functioning. Once this was accomplished I bought a 1,200 round can of the 7.62x25 Tok ammo and make up .30 Luger ammo, as needed, VERY INEXPENSIVELY.
One caution on this method: some 7.62x25 ammo has thicker case walls than others. If you get this thicker brass it is necessary to inside ream the neck after forming. It is possible to use these cases but this extra step is a pain in the butt. If you are going to do this I recommend that you find the thinner cases and stock up on those.
If anyone wants detailed info on this, e-mail me.

[Graybeard]

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